mtutiger Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 I'm sure someone will be along shortly to talk about how substitutes don't do anything. But either way, this seems like too low a bar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Archie said: I say good for him. More election security with proper ID. I don't know how you can have a safe, secure and legitimate election if voters can't prove who they are. I don't have a problem with in person early voting but its not that big of a deal. Minimum wage jobs helps the small business that are hurting so bad right now. Any increase will add to the pain. Absolutely nothing wrong with open carry. More people than ever are arming themselves to protect their families because of dem policies not to incarcerate criminals, ignore violent offenders, and allow millions of illegals aliens to do as they please in the country. Looks like they elected the right guy to run the state. Why is. it that the party that screams proper ID always goes bananas when someone proposes a National ID? You guys keep saying it but we know what you mean. Define small business. The mom and pop run gas station, or restaurant? Or is it defined by the number of employees. Maybe these guys should open their books while they tell their sob story. I've worked for small business owners that beside their business have 3 or more rental houses on the side. 60 thousand plus SUV's. A vacation home Up North and in Florida and/or Arizona. (Of course a couple of these small business radio owners traded everything out and still never gave the staff anything for Christmas). And they still cry poverty on the golf course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Republicans want more "election security", because they tend to do better when voter turnouts are smaller. If they benefitted from larger turnouts, you wouldn't hear them talk about "election security". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 2 hours ago, CMRivdogs said: Why is. it that the party that screams proper ID always goes bananas when someone proposes a National ID? You guys keep saying it but we know what you mean. Define small business. The mom and pop run gas station, or restaurant? Or is it defined by the number of employees. Maybe these guys should open their books while they tell their sob story. I've worked for small business owners that beside their business have 3 or more rental houses on the side. 60 thousand plus SUV's. A vacation home Up North and in Florida and/or Arizona. (Of course a couple of these small business radio owners traded everything out and still never gave the staff anything for Christmas). And they still cry poverty on the golf course. I've never heard about a national ID. I'm only familiar with state issued. No matter, people still should have a valid photo ID to vote proving who they are. I look at small business as usually locally owned with a couple to 30ish employees maybe more depending on type of business. I have friends that own a business in a small town. They employ about 20 people. Most are high school kids but a few are older folks looking for something to do. I assume they are paid minimum wage. I don't know how much my friend makes as its none of my business. I do know they have sold their big fancy home and moved to a small house to keep the business running. They have been hurt by covid and now inventory issues. No inventory = no sales = no income. The Walmarts aren't going out of business but local shops like my friends are. I don't have issue with business owners making money. They take all the risk and live that business 24/7. If the business closes up the employees go find another job but the owner loses everything. I don't think people understand what it's like to run a business until they've done it. It's easy to be an armchair quarterback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 8 minutes ago, Archie said: I've never heard about a national ID. I'm only familiar with state issued. No matter, people still should have a valid photo ID to vote proving who they are. National ID was a big topic shortly after 9/11/2001. It was shot down by "conservatives" as being intrusive to "personal liberties" Quick personal story about trying to obtain a valid drivers license here in Virginia. State law requires proof of residence as well as a copy of a social security card. I realized the day of my appointment that I had mislaid my SS card during the move. Incidentally, if you look closely the SS card says that it is not no be used as an ID. I had my old DL, (still valid in Michigan). my passport, a copy of closing papers on the house and an utility bill. They still refused to process the license until I supplied a SS card or something official (pay stub, tax form, etc) It was a 30 mile drive to an open DMV and long wait for an appointment since we were still in virtual lockdown mode. Even during normal times I think you would agree that dealing with the DMV (or SOS Office in Michigan can be a bear nomatter who is in power) I'm retired and can take the time and had the resources to remedy the situation. (Go on line and request a new card). How many people may be in the same boat would have to take unpaid time off from their low paying job to make the trip several times when hours are 8-5 MF? I've heard stories of women who were divorced and wanted to change back to their maiden name (Divorce papers, birth certificate, etc). It would helpful that the states and politicians screaming about "valid photo ID" actually do something that makes it easier to obtain one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 2 hours ago, Tiger337 said: Republicans want more "election security", because they tend to do better when voter turnouts are smaller. If they benefitted from larger turnouts, you wouldn't hear them talk about "election security". I'm old enough to remember when Republicans loved mail in voting because it was used mostly by seniors and military who favored Republicans. When younger people and minorities started using it is when it became a problem and unsecure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) Just prior to the 2020 election cycle the Conservative groups that write laws for GOP lawmakers were the chief proponents of mail in voting. They also had no problem with dropoff boxes outside registrars offices, city halls, libraries, etc In fact the Pennsylvania Law that the TOP panned was written and passed by a Republican legislature. The biggest vote harvesting case was during a Republican Congressional Primary in NC Edited January 13, 2022 by CMRivdogs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Cue the old crusty Boomer meme "BUT THEY NEED ID TO GET WELFARE!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 16 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said: National ID was a big topic shortly after 9/11/2001. It was shot down by "conservatives" as being intrusive to "personal liberties" Quick personal story about trying to obtain a valid drivers license here in Virginia. State law requires proof of residence as well as a copy of a social security card. I realized the day of my appointment that I had mislaid my SS card during the move. Incidentally, if you look closely the SS card says that it is not no be used as an ID. I had my old DL, (still valid in Michigan). my passport, a copy of closing papers on the house and an utility bill. They still refused to process the license until I supplied a SS card or something official (pay stub, tax form, etc) It was a 30 mile drive to an open DMV and long wait for an appointment since we were still in virtual lockdown mode. Even during normal times I think you would agree that dealing with the DMV (or SOS Office in Michigan can be a bear nomatter who is in power) I'm retired and can take the time and had the resources to remedy the situation. (Go on line and request a new card). How many people may be in the same boat would have to take unpaid time off from their low paying job to make the trip several times when hours are 8-5 MF? I've heard stories of women who were divorced and wanted to change back to their maiden name (Divorce papers, birth certificate, etc). It would helpful that the states and politicians screaming about "valid photo ID" actually do something that makes it easier to obtain one. I completely agree they need to be easy to obtain. In Michigan you need SS card, birth certificate and bank statement to get your first drivers license. I was surprised when I took my kids for theirs. After you have one you usually just renew by mail. I don't know what is like if you're coming from out of state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 minute ago, oblong said: Cue the old crusty Boomer meme "BUT THEY NEED ID TO GET WELFARE!" My favorite is when I worked at the union. They supported elections without photo ID. Funny thing was that when you voted in a union election they required a photo ID to vote. You couldn't even use your membership card because it didn't have a photo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 minute ago, Archie said: I completely agree they need to be easy to obtain. In Michigan you need SS card, birth certificate and bank statement to get your first drivers license. I was surprised when I took my kids for theirs. After you have one you usually just renew by mail. I don't know what is like if you're coming from out of state. But what if you don't drive? I know you don't know anybody, but they're out there. Older folks especially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 There is the state ID. It should be free if it isn't. I know some people have trouble getting around but most people get out now and then. Its not a "right wing" thing to support but I like the appointment system at the SOS. As long as you can get an appointment in a reasonable amount of time it worked good. I hate going there and waiting 3 hours to get a license plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 In a perfect system SOS should work with local and state officials to have regular (monthly, quarterly, etc) satellite centers for such things at local libraries, recreation centers, schools, etc. That would be real local government at work 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 I can't remember the last time I've seen our local government at work. They're usually too busy with self promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 voter id is popular with americans. eliminating the filibuster is a great idea because the filibuster is ridiculous and prevents the party in power from running the government, but to pass this voting rights act? dumb hill to die on for the democrats. the real threat is at the state level. reform the electoral college voting procedures, dont waste your time trying to stop the republicans from eliminating "ballot harvesting" or making people show a drivers license or (good lord) passing out water at polling sites. that doesnt help you like you think it does and isnt as popular with voters as you think it is. stop the republicans from not certifying state electoral votes. that's the real potential crisis. people can bring their own water. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 I've been reading a book written 50 years ago by James Michener discussing basically the same thing. He was an elector from Pennsylvania during the 1968 election. It's surprising how close we came to a constitutional crises with that election. If Wallace hadn't underperformed the election could have quite possibly been thrown to the House. That would open the door for one of the parties to work a deal, either in the EC or House, with the Wallace people to swing the election their way. The 2000 election was also a close call. Especially if Gore had chosen to go the Trump route and further challenge results. Trump and Co opened Pandora's box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said: I've been reading a book written 50 years ago by James Michener discussing basically the same thing. He was an elector from Pennsylvania during the 1968 election. It's surprising how close we came to a constitutional crises with that election. If Wallace hadn't underperformed the election could have quite possibly been thrown to the House. That would open the door for one of the parties to work a deal, either in the EC or House, with the Wallace people to swing the election their way. The 2000 election was also a close call. Especially if Gore had chosen to go the Trump route and further challenge results. Trump and Co opened Pandora's box. heck, that's kinda how we got rutherford b hayes! republicans decided to sell black folks down the river and end reconstruction by agreeing with white racist democrats that hayes would be president despite getting a lot less votes than tilden. ah white americans. forever sacrificing the rights of black people in the name of national unity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said: I've been reading a book written 50 years ago by James Michener discussing basically the same thing. He was an elector from Pennsylvania during the 1968 election. It's surprising how close we came to a constitutional crises with that election. If Wallace hadn't underperformed the election could have quite possibly been thrown to the House. That would open the door for one of the parties to work a deal, either in the EC or House, with the Wallace people to swing the election their way. The 2000 election was also a close call. Especially if Gore had chosen to go the Trump route and further challenge results. Trump and Co opened Pandora's box. It really gets back to the fact that this system of electing Presidents is just absolute garbage. It's not gonna change, obviously, but it's just terrible and creates more problems than it solves. If someone wanted to design a well functioning democracy from scratch, would they ever look at our system and think, "yeah, that's totally the way to go"? Edited January 13, 2022 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 That was in the book. Michener in 1969 or so was endorsing doing away with the EC since the electors are now elected by popular vote as opposed to being appointed as the founders had envisioned and no one knows who they are anyway. He was part of the PA EC. There was a major snowstorm in the eastern part of the state the night before they met to certify. Basically they ended pulling any. breathing Democrat they could find from the statehouse to make the vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 and many states don't allow electors to go against the wishes of the state. It's all ceremony. Just say "If you win CA, you get 54 points, if you win MI, you get 18 points, whatever it is... don't call them "electors". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 9 hours ago, Archie said: I don't have issue with business owners making money. They take all the risk and live that business 24/7. If the business closes up the employees go find another job but the owner loses everything. I don't think people understand what it's like to run a business until they've done it. It's easy to be an armchair quarterback. I don't think most people have a problem with small business owners making money and I think most realize it's not easy to run a business. When we are critical of businesses, it is usually big businesses that rake in billions and don't treat their emmployees well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: ignorance knows no party I guess. What makes it so totally ridiculous is that at a time when when a document like that might have taken a take a week for a staff to review and fact check, the standard was such that a mistake like that would have cost a job, whereas today when the task can be done in 10 minutes no-one bothers, and it will pass with hardly a shrug of a shoulder. Edited January 14, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, Archie said: My favorite is when I worked at the union. They supported elections without photo ID. Funny thing was that when you voted in a union election they required a photo ID to vote. You couldn't even use your membership card because it didn't have a photo. One is a constitutional right the other isn't. Glad to help you out. Needless to say it's not shocking you have no issue trampling peoples rights. And your hypocrisy about your freedom and rights isn't shocking either. Edited January 14, 2022 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 I for one strongly disagree with being forced to show Republicans my papers to leverage my constitutional right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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