POLITICS SCHMALITICS

[Tigerbomb13]

23 minutes ago, Archie said:

Good lord you're delusional.  

Im going to take a break from this socialist oasis for a while.  Your comments and opinions here are so off base and in left field its not even close to being realistic.  One thing I have learned here is the mindset it took to vote for Biden and be willing to sacrifice our country for it.

Hahahhahahaha

[Cartman]

1 hour ago, Archie said:

Good lord you're delusional.  

Im going to take a break from this socialist oasis for a while.  Your comments and opinions here are so off base and in left field its not even close to being realistic.  One thing I have learned here is the mindset it took to vote for Biden and be willing to sacrifice our country for it.

This board is literally beyond hope for legit political discussions that honestly evaluate and criticize the left and right. TDS and “Righteous Holier Than Thou Ds” mind poisoning has infected those who formerly viewed the world more objectively. The best you and other who are not bound to a political party can do is report the crazy shit and policies the left takes part of to offer some semblance of balance. 

[oblong]

what do you mean by "report"?

Just because there's two sides to a point doesn't make one of them valid.  People think the earth is flat.  They're nuts.  

 

[pfife]

sorry this hasn't been the safe space you guys need.

by sorry I mean not sorry

[Tigerbomb13]

Tots and pears 

[Tigerbomb13]

The funny thing is people like Archie calling this board a “socialist oasis”. I’m old enough to remember how this place slanted to the right pre Trump. A lot of those conservatives like Romad are just sane and conservatives without a party. Others I feel like have moved more to the left (Oblong and especially Tater) in that time. But I felt like this was always a reasonable place, and I really have felt like I’ve learned a lot in the over 15 years I’ve followed this political board. 

[smr-nj]

9 minutes ago, Tigerbomb13 said:

The funny thing is people like Archie calling this board a “socialist oasis”. I’m old enough to remember how this place slanted to the right pre Trump. A lot of those conservatives like Romad are just sane and conservatives without a party. Others I feel like have moved more to the left (Oblong and especially Tater) in that time. But I felt like this was always a reasonable place, and I really have felt like I’ve learned a lot in the over 15 years I’ve followed this political board. 

Yep 👍 

[mtutiger]

2 hours ago, pfife said:

It was me, and I actually still think it - he sounds like republicans I hear calling into CSPAN every day.   They believe this stuff.

I don't think he's a troll either.

My main issue is that you really don't get much of a response when you try to engage in good faith there. Points just get ignored and instead you get a bunch of "Old Man Bad" (see what I did there?) and "Democrats Bad" and "people on the board hate America" and stuff like that.

It's a shame really.... you can want to engage in good faith with people of opposing views, but that's a two way street.... and it never really seems constructive with some folks.

Edited February 1, 2022 by mtutiger

[pfife]

5 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I don't think he's a troll either.

My main issue is that you really don't get much of a response when you try to engage in good faith there. Points just get ignored and instead you get a bunch of "Old Man Bad" (see what I did there?) and "Democrats Bad" and "people on the board hate America" and stuff like that.

It's a shame really.... you can want to engage in good faith with people of opposing views, but that's a two way street.... and it never really seems constructive with some folks.

Yeah I never get responses, I think I'm on ignore.  No matter.   I'm someone who pays someone to teach me to kick and punch using inanimate objects.   Doing so makes me better at kicking and punching.   

[smr-nj]

6 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I don't think he's a troll either.

My main issue is that you really don't get much of a response when you try to engage in good faith there. Points just get ignored and instead you get a bunch of "Old Man Bad" (see what I did there?) and "Democrats Bad" and "people on the board hate America" and stuff like that.

It's a shame really.... you can want to engage in good faith with people of opposing views, but that's a two way street.... and it never really seems constructive with some folks.

Yes. Which is why trying to reasonably respond is kinda useless. And getting personally abusive in responses is a problem.

[pfife]

I don't think it's useless.   It's practice.

[pfife]

And catharsis.   And I'm not sure what to call this, but I'd rather do politics fighting here than at my job, w/ my family, friends, etc.    No offense folks.  😄   

Edited February 1, 2022 by pfife

[Mr.TaterSalad]

I used to be a right wing, well libertarian I guess, troll around these parts and in my daily life back from 2009 when I first joined the old board through around 2013ish. I had many of the same talking points as posters like Archie and Cartman do today and folks like BallMich had several years back. I used to get into troll fights and arguments with Fife, Couga, MTU, G2, and others.

Back in my libertarians days I was a collection of greatest hits talking points: from owning progressives and liberals, to government action = socialism, to socialism = scary, to Democrats and Obama are driving us towards socialism, to the private sector could do it better, to End the Fed, and on. When it snowed, I' be the first one out there to take a picture outside and post LOL @ Global Warming. I had read all the requisite right wing and libertarian books, websites and blogs at the time: Reason Magazine, National Review, Weekly Standard, Mises Institute, Cato, Heartland, etc. I had read every Milton Friedman book and watched every YouTube video ever that featured him. I had the Fox News and right wing talking points about the left down so pat I could recite them in my sleep.

I remember fierce debates on this board about the GM and Chrysler bailouts. I remember fighting with MTU and G2 about Amtrak being a total failure in a thread I had created to show the world proof that Amtrak meant that government entities were all destined to fail, never mind the fact that Amtrak has failed because of stagnation and purposeful disinvestment in it as a rail system. I remember one time back in 2012ish I got into an argument with Fife over Barak Obama's and then Secretary of State Clinton's use of drones as a means to fight external and domestic terrorism and my single word response to Fife was to simply type "DROWNED" in all caps.

I debated purely off emotion and made reactionary responses that fit my narrative and nothing more. Now, some may say I still do that (much respect to the Buddha), but I've tried to grow and mature beyond being that type of person here and in my daily life. I've tried to be thoughtful and willing to accept facts and research that live outside my personal narratives.

When everything that happened with my dad happened in 2012 I gave the right win echo chamber a break and purposefully challenged myself to step outside the bubble and broaden my horizons. I forced myself to start watching different news channels, getting news and opinion from different online websites, reading different books and research. I still respect a guy like Ron Paul and still agree with many of his ideas on a range of issues. I don't worship him, nor do I worship any one particular ideology or politician, not even ole Bernie Sanders or EDub. Don't get me wrong, I think Sanders, Warren, and the like have the best ideas for building a better, fairer, equitable, and just society. I think their policy ideas and programs will do a lot more good in the lives of people like my dad and the average person out there. I think they will tackle the climate change crisis and income inequities in a meaningful way. But I don't worship them and I don't see them as infallible people. They make mistakes, get things wrong, and have warts just like the rest of us.

I say all that to say this. Posters like Archie, Cartman, BallMich, and people like my own right-wing father, they are trapped in a bubble. One that is partially there own making and one that has been made by society, by a poor education system that doesn't teach critical thinking, one by a media ecosphere that has sowed misinformation and distrust into the fabric of our society. They have fallen victim to politicians who toy with their emotions and manipulate both their feelings and their intellect for their own gain. And when I say something like that, I don't say it to demean those posters as idiots, but I do wish to point out the problems that arise from cult-like worship over someone. I do wish to bring more substance to the arguments and not just news media talking points. I do wish for rebuttals of fact and substance, not talking points and character attacks.

Bernie Sanders is not some scary socialist, manipulating the minds of leftwing people and Democrats for his own personal gain. He's not the lefts version of Donald Trump, in spite of the similarly rabid fan base that follows him around. Sure, he rails against the rich and inequities in society. But at days end, I think he's just an honest, open guy who believes that government has the tools and capabilities necessary to do the most good in people's lives, in line with a well balanced and regulated marketplace. I genuinely do not believe that Donald Trump cares about the life of the average person, I do believe Bernie Sanders does and to a lesser extent, Joe Biden does.

I'll accept right wing and conservative opinions as best I can. What I won't accept though, are the naked and brazen attacks on our country and our democratic institutions. I won't accept our democratic values backsliding into authoritarianism and the loss of free, fair elections. I won't accept outright lies and baseless talking points to overtake the truth all to promote a baseless agenda. I won't tolerate racism, bigotry, sexism, and any number of phobias towards any group of people.  I love this country. I love the freedoms we have. I would love not only to preserve those, but expand them to others and clean up our flawed system and all of its inequities and imperfections.

For me, the personal growth I experienced over the last decade was the best thing that ever happened. Not only for me, but for those around me as well. I hope others can gain some level of introspection and experience the personal growth I did.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Mr.TaterSalad

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I say all that to say this. Posters like Archie, Cartman, BallMich, and people like my own right-wing father, they are trapped in a bubble. One that is partially there own making and one that has been made by society, by a poor education system that doesn't teach critical thinking, one by a media ecosphere that has sowed misinformation and distrust into the fabric of our society. They have fallen victim to politicians who toy with their emotions and manipulate both their feelings and their intellect for their own gain. And when I say something like that, I don't say it to demean those posters as idiots, but I do wish to point out the problems that arise from cult-like worship over someone. I do wish to bring more substance to the arguments and not just news media talking points. I do wish for rebuttals of fact and substance, not talking points and character attacks.

 

To be fair, everyone is in a bubble to varying extents. I tend to think a lot of the focus and discussion on bubbles tends to be pointed at the left, of course (recall the Peggy Noonan excerpt shared a few weeks ago) but there absolutely are right-wing bubbles as well.... 

Either way, I get that the general lean of the board is what it is and that it's not the most diverse set of opinions out there, especially since November 2016. And yeah, we all need to do a little more to be civil in discussion (something I have really tried working on, especially in this new iteration of the board). 

I guess my question is, when someone comes onto this board and constantly just talks about how dumb everyone else is and how they don't like America and how they are willing to "sacrifice their country" all because they simply hold a different perspective, should it be that big of a surprise that they don't exactly win back a lot of respect in the process?

As I keep saying, it's a two-way street... I'll talk with anyone, but after about the 80th time of being told how terrible and dumb you are and how you hate America because of your views, it starts seeming pretty pointless to engage.

 

[gehringer_2]

8 hours ago, chasfh said:

I'm not sure I agree that the modern GOP doesn't like America. They like a certain type of America that was prevalent once but no longer is . What they don't like is the America that's replacing it.

They like an America that existed in their heads but never actually did in reality.

[gehringer_2]

6 hours ago, pfife said:

Yet you want to ban people from countries from immigrating here b/c of their chants (words), and look past that they didn't terrorist(action). 

Do you even try?

being swayed by that kind of thing is as dumb as judging public opinion by twitter - and just as easily manipulated. no country on earth has more anti-american chanting than Iran, and it's all paid advertising by the regime. Iranians that come here love America - heII, most Iranians in Iran love America.

Edited February 2, 2022 by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

4 hours ago, oblong said:

what do you mean by "report"?

Just because there's two sides to a point doesn't make one of them valid.  People think the earth is flat.  They're nuts.  

 

exactly. I for one am dying for better balance between the opinions of people undermining the nation at every turn and the rest of the sane world.........not.

[Edman85]

I've probably moved to the center not the left.

I've voted for Republicans as recently as down ballot 2016. I don't embrace a lot of the left wing ideology, but Trump's emergence and the loons in his wake have exposed a lot of the right wing ideology as fraudulent. I like to call out nonsense on all sides, since irrational polarization is at the core of our problems right now.

[gehringer_2]

8 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

I've probably moved to the center not the left.

I've voted for Republicans as recently as down ballot 2016. I don't embrace a lot of the left wing ideology, but Trump's emergence and the loons in his wake have exposed a lot of the right wing ideology as fraudulent. I like to call out nonsense on all sides, since irrational polarization is at the core of our problems right now.

the left is looney about a lot of things, but the left's lunacies are mostly about things that don't threaten democratic government. Self rule is not at risk over people designating their pronouns or in a reparations debate or over which statues go where. It is when access to the polls and overturning elections and suppression of real historical truth and banning of books are the order of business.

Edited February 2, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Edman85]

Agreed

[mtutiger]

23 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

I've probably moved to the center not the left.

I've voted for Republicans as recently as down ballot 2016. I don't embrace a lot of the left wing ideology, but Trump's emergence and the loons in his wake have exposed a lot of the right wing ideology as fraudulent. I like to call out nonsense on all sides, since irrational polarization is at the core of our problems right now.

Maybe I'm blind, but for the most part, I don't see the hatred in day to day life. And I work with and interact with people who don't think like me quite a bit.

But the internet and social media amplifies a lot of differences. I wish we could go back to simpler times when that wasn't the case. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by mtutiger

[Mr.TaterSalad]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

They like an America that existed in their heads but never actually did in reality.

If it were George Wallace running instead of Trump, MAGA would rally behind Wallace and his grievance brand of racial politics just as they have with Trump. Make America Great Again really means Make Power Structures of America Fall Under Total White Control Again. Sure, they'll vote for a John James, Tim Scott, Marco Rubio, or JC Watts when it suits their cause. But by and large, they are frustrated as white people that they don't control major power structures like they did and they see their white, Christian grip on America slipping. Make America Great Again runs along the same lines as Wallace's Stand Up For America. Wallace didn't want to integrate schools, Trump and his father didn't want to integrate his apartment units. Segregation, nonetheless.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Mr.TaterSalad]

2 hours ago, mtutiger said:

To be fair, everyone is in a bubble to varying extents. I tend to think a lot of the focus and discussion on bubbles tends to be pointed at the left, of course (recall the Peggy Noonan excerpt shared a few weeks ago) but there absolutely are right-wing bubbles as well.... 

Either way, I get that the general lean of the board is what it is and that it's not the most diverse set of opinions out there, especially since November 2016. And yeah, we all need to do a little more to be civil in discussion (something I have really tried working on, especially in this new iteration of the board). 

I guess my question is, when someone comes onto this board and constantly just talks about how dumb everyone else is and how they don't like America and how they are willing to "sacrifice their country" all because they simply hold a different perspective, should it be that big of a surprise that they don't exactly win back a lot of respect in the process?

As I keep saying, it's a two-way street... I'll talk with anyone, but after about the 80th time of being told how terrible and dumb you are and how you hate America because of your views, it starts seeming pretty pointless to engage.

 

What burns me is when someone who flies a confederate flag and gets angry when statues of Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee come down has the audacity to say to me as a progressive, left wing American that I am not patriotic. You don't get to fly the flag of successionist losers on one end and then tell me I am un-American and don't love my country on the other end. They are serious about it too and see no irony in what they say or do. It is completely lost on them. I don't love America to the point that I lose all sight of its racist, oppressive past.

I sat around in 2016 underestimating the threat Trump posed to America. I voted for Hillary Clinton as a last minute decision and I'm thankful everyday I did. I also regret not recognizing the gravity of the situation and doing more to help get her elected in 2016. But I'll be damned if I don't love the freedom that democracy affords us all, free and fair elections, and the right to express myself freely. And I'll be damned if I watch the democracy we live in and the rights we all have to speak out with what we disagree with and vote freely go down the drain thanks to ignorance and an oppressive, cult like mentality..

Edited February 2, 2022 by Mr.TaterSalad

[pfife]

I moved from really left to a little less left than I was previously but probably not substantially.

[oblong]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

the left is looney about a lot of things, but the left's lunacies are mostly about things that don't threaten democratic government. Self rule is not at risk over people designating their pronouns or in a reparations debate or over which statues go where. It is when access to the polls and overturning elections and suppression of real historical truth and banning of books are the order of business.

And even in important stuff it’s like…”wait?   Free stuff?”  Yes I know there’s other issues at play and debt considerations but nobody in Washington cares about the debt so I would rather that money go to people directly rather than a corporation or another bomber or aircraft carrier. 
 

trickle down is a fraud.