POLITICS SCHMALITICS

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, chasfh said:

Yeah, losing weight is hard. Eating less food is hard. Eating the right food is hard. Moving around more is hard. Putting in the work to lose weight is just hard. But only a small sliver of people are fat because of genetics, so for the rest of us, it all comes down to, how bad do we want it?

almost everything in biology is on some kind of continuum, any two people are probably facing situations of different degrees. This is pretty much true of all things that may or may not be described as addictions. Even to take the most classic case, there are countless people who got hooked on opiates or heroin and one day just decided to stop on another day, and just do, and countless others who struggled helplessly until it kills them (plus almost every situation in between). Those two groups undoubtedly have very different bio/neuro chemistry going on. We know the same is true with alcohol and it's probably true for everything else that people find themselves doing compulsively. There is always a natural tendency to extrapolate one person's/groups example as the guide for advice to someone else but that's always tricky business.

to the degree I will contradict myself though, I'd agree with your post generally - for the average person with a moderate amount of weight to lose, a lifestyle shift is the best way to make a change in diet stick. 

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

I'm calling bull****. What is your source on this? Seven out of eight people are not addicted to alcohol. Seven out of eight are not addicted to drugs. They just need to put in the work depending on how bad they want it. 

The University of Michigan.

1 in 8 Americans over 50 show signs of food addiction

By process of elimination, seven out of eight people are not addicted to food.

I don't know what you think the relevance of drugs or alcohol is here, but we're talking about portion size, diet culture, and losing weight.

 

[chasfh]

11 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I'd agree with your post generally - for the average person with a moderate amount of weight to lose, a lifestyle shift is the best way to make a change in diet stick. 

Right.

[Motown Bombers]

7 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The University of Michigan.

1 in 8 Americans over 50 show signs of food addiction

By process of elimination, seven out of eight people are not addicted to food.

I don't know what you think the relevance of drugs or alcohol is here, but we're talking about portion size, diet culture, and losing weight.

 

The relevance is that food addiction is not treated the same as people with alcohol and drug addiction as you are demonstrating. People who are overweight are simply lazy whereas as alcoholics and drug addicts are battling demons. Even from your link:

“The word addiction may seem strong when it comes to food, but research has shown that our brains respond as strongly to highly processed foods, especially those highest in sugar, simple starches, and fat, as they do to tobacco, alcohol and other addictive substances,” says Gearhardt.

This link is only a study of people of over 50. Other studies have as high as 20% of people have a food addiction vs. less than 10% of people addicted to alcohol. If it's simply a lifestyle change, what eating disorders are real then? Anorexia? Just make a lifestyle change and eat more. 

[Motown Bombers]

32 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

almost everything in biology is on some kind of continuum, any two people are probably facing situations of different degrees. This is pretty much true of all things that may or may not be described as addictions. Even to take the most classic case, there are countless people who got hooked on opiates or heroin and one day just decided to stop on another day, and just do, and countless others who struggled helplessly until it kills them (plus almost every situation in between). Those two groups undoubtedly have very different bio/neuro chemistry going on. We know the same is true with alcohol and it's probably true for everything else that people find themselves doing compulsively. There is always a natural tendency to extrapolate one person's/groups example as the guide for advice to someone else but that's always tricky business.

to the degree I will contradict myself though, I'd agree with your post generally - for the average person with a moderate amount of weight to lose, a lifestyle shift is the best way to make a change in diet stick. 

The average person with a moderate drinking problem, they just need to make a lifestyle shift and stop drinking. Easy enough. 

[Motown Bombers]

Now that I think about it, one out of every eight people addicted to food is a lot. That's 13% of the population. 10.2% of the population battled alcohol use in the past year, and 9.7% battled substance abuse. Fentanyl is treated as an epidemic, even so much we have to crash our economy. When more people are addicted to food, it's just quit being lazy. 

[RatkoVarda]

this is a few years old, but hits on a lot of issues.

one thing I will add is that it is cruel to say to some poor people, who may be food insecure and not know when there next "big" calorie dense meal will be, "eat fewer calories, it will better for you in the long run." that is true, but for many it is about survival and hunger.

to a well-off person who knows that there will be 21 meals a week, that's an easier, more reasonable ask.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/08/31/1120004717/the-u-s-diet-is-deadly-here-are-7-ideas-to-get-americans-eating-healthier

[gehringer_2]

42 minutes ago, chasfh said:

 

I don't know what you think the relevance of drugs or alcohol is here, but we're talking about portion size, diet culture, and losing weight.

 

just the point that even within  things that are addiction by wide consensus, you can't generalize that any two people have a similar experience.

[Motown Bombers]

It's all so easy. Just drink fewer beers, it will be better for you in the long run. Just do fewer lines of coke, it will be better for you in the long run. You just got to want to make the change. 

[gehringer_2]

29 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

The average person with a moderate drinking problem, they just need to make a lifestyle shift and stop drinking. Easy enough. 

I don't know if you are being facetious but the exact thing you describe does happens widely. I have at least one family who member realized he was drinking too much (he was), cut back and that was the end of that. He is person who apparently is not that susceptible to physical alcohol addition. It had simply become a social habit for him. Again, not implying this should be true an any particular person, only stating that it is true for a segment of the population. 

Edited Monday at 03:55 PM by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

26 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

The relevance is that food addiction is not treated the same as people with alcohol and drug addiction as you are demonstrating. People who are overweight are simply lazy whereas as alcoholics and drug addicts are battling demons. Even from your link:

“The word addiction may seem strong when it comes to food, but research has shown that our brains respond as strongly to highly processed foods, especially those highest in sugar, simple starches, and fat, as they do to tobacco, alcohol and other addictive substances,” says Gearhardt.

This link is only a study of people of over 50. Other studies have as high as 20% of people have a food addiction vs. less than 10% of people addicted to alcohol. If it's simply a lifestyle change, what eating disorders are real then? Anorexia? Just make a lifestyle change and eat more. 

I don’t know what you’re on about here, but the bottom line relevant to the topic at hand is that for the majority of people, mainly those who don’t experience food addiction, the key to losing weight is expending more calories than you take in. If you have a food addiction and you need professional help to address it, then this simple solution doesn’t apply to you. If you don’t have a food addiction and you simply don’t want to run the calorie deficit needed to lose weight, then that’s a decision you’re certainly free to make. 

[oblong]

9 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I don't know if you are being facetious but the exact thing you describe does happens widely. I have at least one family who member realized he was drinking too much (he was), cut back and that was the end of that. He is person who apparently is not that susceptible to physical alcohol addition. It had simply become a social habit for him. Again, not implying this should be true an any particular person, only stating that it is true for a segment of the population. 

I struggle with that a little.  I have 1-3 a day.  But I have started back to drinking lighter beers when I do that.  If I have something 6% or higher then it's just one.  I like the flavor.  I get N/A beer now so that if I want one while cooking dinner, or want another one later in the night.  Hockey playoffs are coming up and I love those west coast games.  

[Motown Bombers]

7 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I don’t know what you’re on about here, but the bottom line relevant to the topic at hand is that for the majority of people, mainly those who don’t experience food addiction, the key to losing weight is expending more calories than you take in. If you have a food addiction and you need professional help to address it, then this simple solution doesn’t apply to you. If you don’t have a food addiction and you simply don’t want to run the calorie deficit needed to lose weight, then that’s a decision you’re certainly free to make. 

What I'm "on about here" is that you said losing weight was hard and that people who don't lose weight just don't want it enough. That's when I brought up food addiction and you minimized that, but it's every bit an epidemic as drug and alcohol abuse but fewer resources are available for it. There needs to be a societal shift in the thinking of overweight people and understand that they face the same issues as alcoholics and drug addicts. You don't just go up to an alcoholic and tell them stop drinking. You can offer them detox and rehab. Food addiction is even more challenging because you simply can't stop eating. Nobody ever needed to drink a beer in their life or snort cocaine. They made a conscious choice to do so. 

[chasfh]

25 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

this is a few years old, but hits on a lot of issues.

one thing I will add is that it is cruel to say to some poor people, who may be food insecure and not know when there next "big" calorie dense meal will be, "eat fewer calories, it will better for you in the long run." that is true, but for many it is about survival and hunger.

to a well-off person who knows that there will be 21 meals a week, that's an easier, more reasonable ask.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/08/31/1120004717/the-u-s-diet-is-deadly-here-are-7-ideas-to-get-americans-eating-healthier

Yes that’s true, people with that kind of uncertainty around where their next meal is from have a different set of imperatives to which this discussion does not apply. I’m not sure whether any of the principals in this sidebar are experiencing that kind of food insecurity, but if so, the strategy of calorie deficit to lose weight is not relevant to them.

[Motown Bombers]

I like how people here think overweight people don't know how to lose weight. It's just calorie deficit! No ****. 

[chasfh]

12 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

What I'm "on about here" is that you said losing weight was hard and that people who don't lose weight just don't want it enough. That's when I brought up food addiction and you minimized that, but it's every bit an epidemic as drug and alcohol abuse but fewer resources are available for it. There needs to be a societal shift in the thinking of overweight people and understand that they face the same issues as alcoholics and drug addicts. You don't just go up to an alcoholic and tell them stop drinking. You can offer them detox and rehab. Food addiction is even more challenging because you simply can't stop eating. Nobody ever needed to drink a beer in their life or snort cocaine. They made a conscious choice to do so. 

If you have a food addiction issue, then obviously the simple calorie deficit strategy doesn’t apply to you. If you don’t have a food addiction issue, and you can control how much you eat and how much activity you can put forward, and you want to lose weight, then you’re simply gonna have to put in the work. There’s no way around that. Sorry.

[Motown Bombers]

Just now, chasfh said:

If you have a food addiction issue, then obviously the simple calorie deficit strategy doesn’t apply to you. If you don’t have a food addiction issue, and you can control how much you eat and how much activity you can put forward, and you want to lose weight, then you’re simply gonna have to put in the work. There’s no way around that. Sorry.

Absolutely. I'll remember this then when people talk about the Fentanyl epidemic in Appalachia. They simply got to put in the work. Sorry. 

[Tiger337]

4 hours ago, chasfh said:

Yeah, losing weight is hard. Eating less food is hard. Eating the right food is hard. Moving around more is hard. Putting in the work to lose weight is just hard. But only a small sliver of people are fat because of genetics, so for the rest of us, it all comes down to, how bad do we want it?

It's not easy for some people, but we have so many more obese people than most other countries (including developed and undeveloped countries).  Why is that?  I have been around 6-0 150 my entire life which is probably average in many countries, but I have been told I'm too skinny and need to put some meat on my bones on many occasions.  I eat plenty, never go hungry and am generally healthy, so I never feel a need to gain weight.  For some men though, there seems to be a pressure to be big.  At social events, people (both men and women) are compelled to eat a lot.   It feels like the same pressure put on people to drink alcohol.  Maybe that is something that needs to change about our society.  

[chasfh]

16 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Absolutely. I'll remember this then when people talk about the Fentanyl epidemic in Appalachia. They simply got to put in the work. Sorry. 

Do what you feel you need to. 

[Motown Bombers]

6 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

It's not easy for some people, but we have so many more obese people than most other countries (including developed and undeveloped countries).  Why is that?  I have been around 6-0 150 my entire life which is probably average in many countries, but I have been told I'm too skinny and need to put some meat on my bones on many occasions.  I eat plenty, never go hungry and am generally healthy, so I never feel a need to gain weight.  For some men though, there seems to be a pressure to be big.  At social events, people (both men and women) are compelled to eat a lot.   It feels like the same pressure put on people to drink alcohol.  Maybe that is something that needs to change about our society.  

The US also has one of the highest opioid addiction rates in the world. It's access to opioids which is prevalent in the US, and also access to addictive foods like highly processed foods. 

[Motown Bombers]

Just now, chasfh said:

Do what you feel you need to. 

I am. I don't need your permission. 

[Tiger337]

3 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

The US also has one of the highest opioid addiction rates in the world. It's access to opioids which is prevalent in the US, and also access to addictive foods like highly processed foods. 

This is true.  Easy access is a problem.  People had too much access to prescription opioids which is how the epidemic got started. They have less access to prescription opioids now, but so many are now addicted that there is a big market in the United States for illegal opioids.  That is why drug dealers come here so much.  We also have great access to unhealthy foods.  As usual, it's big business and big marketing telling us to eat all this stuff.  

[Edman85]

I have a friend who is overweight. She knows it. I am pretty open about my prediabetes (recently upgraded to mild type 2) and was at her house for a cookout a couple years ago, but because it was burgers and Mac and cheese I said I would come out but eat at home. She said something about how she was trying to lose weight and was using organic ground beef for the burgers thinking that would help.

Somebody else has pushed gluten free food on me (gluten free actually is usually bad for diabetics because whole wheat is replaced by simple carbohydrates).

I just don't think people have a fundamental understanding of nutrition and buy into the buzzwords out there.

Anyways, I like to cook and like to exercise, so there are worse afflictions to have...

Edited Monday at 05:06 PM by Edman85

[chasfh]

8 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

It's not easy for some people, but we have so many more obese people than most other countries (including developed and undeveloped countries).  Why is that?  I have been around 6-0 150 my entire life which is probably average in many countries, but I have been told I'm too skinny and need to put some meat on my bones on many occasions.  I eat plenty, never go hungry and am generally healthy, so I never feel a need to gain weight.  For some men though, there seems to be a pressure to be big.  At social events, people (both men and women) are compelled to eat a lot.   It feels like the same pressure put on people to drink alcohol.  Maybe that is something that needs to change about our society.  

Heck no it’s not easy. That’s why it takes work! But yeah, there are a lot of social pressures that compel people to eat, no doubt. But if you want to lose weight, don’t have the kind of affliction that needs professional help, and you have some control over how much you can eat and move around, you’d need to find a way to ignore the social cues for however long you need to and put in that work to accomplish your objective. There’s no other way around it. If you have the ability, it’s up to you. I would think the pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps would be all over that message. Then again, I think a key thing we’ve learned about those people is that bootstraps aren’t for them—they’re for rest of us. 

[chasfh]

15 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I am. I don't need your permission. 

Yea you do. 😜