2022 DETROIT TIGERS REGULAR SEASON THREAD

[Tigermojo]

I have to question what type of environment does it create when your lowest paid players are your best performers? I think we've seen the answer this season and it's not good.

[buddha]

44 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

And still no shake-up in the coaching staff. Our owner's patience appears to have morphed into softness, which is not the same thing.

it's not patience, it's ignorance and lack of confidence.

he doesnt know anything about the business so he just does nothing.  after all, nothing is the easiest thing to do.

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, buddha said:

it's not patience, it's ignorance and lack of confidence.

he doesnt know anything about the business so he just does nothing.  after all, nothing is the easiest thing to do.

If Chris Ilitch didn't come into baseball ownership knowing more about it than 90% of other owners, it would surprise me. I tend to believe it's his choice not to act based on a set of beliefs about the current situation that  - let's just say - are not widely shared. Or maybe by temperament he is simply not hard-core enough to run a sport org well. If you don't like firing people,  you can work around non-performing or ill-placed people in a large business operation fairly easily. The management circle of a sports team is too small to stash incompetence in very easily.

Edited July 31, 2022 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

24 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

If Chris Ilitch didn't come into baseball ownership knowing more about it than 90% of other owners, it would surprise me. I tend to believe it's his choice not to act based on a set of beliefs about the current situation that  - let's just say - are not widely shared. Or maybe by temperament he is simply not hard-core enough to run a sport org well. If you don't like firing people,  you can work around non-performing or ill-placed people in a large business operation fairly easily. The management circle of a sports team is too small to stash incompetence in very easily.

chris illitch is the spoiled son of a guy who built a business empire.

he's william clay ford.

[mtutiger]

William Clay Ford's problem wasn't ignorance... Plenty of ignorant owners have won championships over the years in the four major sports. Georgia Frontiere and David Glass come to mind. And lack of confidence isn't a factor either. He just didn't want to fire his buddy.

Ilitch Sr. Wasn't much better for this franchise on that front until he hired DD. And in present day, we are kinda left hoping that hiring AJ serves a similar purpose lol

[buddha]

3 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

William Clay Ford's problem wasn't ignorance... Plenty of ignorant owners have won championships over the years in the four major sports. Georgia Frontiere and David Glass come to mind. And lack of confidence isn't a factor either. He just didn't want to fire his buddy.

Ilitch Sr. Wasn't much better for this franchise on that front until he hired DD. And in present day, we are kinda left hoping that hiring AJ serves a similar purpose lol

willIam clay ford was ignorant as to how to run a successful business.  he never ran anything in his life and was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.  he was loyal because he didnt have a clue as to how to run a successful organization.

chris illitch has shown no signs of being able to run a sports team.  sure, his dad wasnt the best in the beginning, but did hire devellano and then dd for the tigers after initial missteps.  chris lucked into steve yzerman and promoted avila and watched him fail and did nothing.

 

[mtutiger]

7 minutes ago, buddha said:

chris illitch has shown no signs of being able to run a sports team.  sure, his dad wasnt the best in the beginning, but did hire devellano and then dd for the tigers after initial missteps.  chris lucked into steve yzerman and promoted avila and watched him fail and did nothing.

 

In other words, prior to his dad hiring DD, he was his son.

I dont know if Pizza Jr. will ever figure it out, but his Dad wasn't a Saint either, particularly for those of us who don't care as much about the hockey side of the business. The franchise was arguably worse when DD took over then than it is now, and Senior deserves credit for that.

Edited July 31, 2022 by mtutiger

[Tenacious D]

3 minutes ago, buddha said:

willIam clay ford was ignorant as to how to run a successful business.  he never ran anything in his life and was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.  he was loyal because he didnt have a clue as to how to run a successful organization.

chris illitch has shown no signs of being able to run a sports team.  sure, his dad wasnt the best in the beginning, but did hire devellano and then dd for the tigers after initial missteps.  chris lucked into steve yzerman and promoted avila and watched him fail and did nothing.

 

The joke around William Clay Ford was that he was the Fredo of the Ford family.  Instead of sending him to Vegas so that he wouldn’t mess up the family business, they gave him the Lions to run.  If he was held in high regard, he would have been more involved with Ford Motor Company 

[buddha]

1 minute ago, Tenacious D said:

The joke around William Clay Ford was that he was the Fredo of the Ford family.  Instead of sending him to Vegas so that he wouldn’t mess up the family business, they gave him the Lions to run.  If he was held in high regard, he would have been more involved with Ford Motor Company 

that's exactly correct.

[casimir]

11 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

William Clay Ford's problem wasn't ignorance... Plenty of ignorant owners have won championships over the years in the four major sports. Georgia Frontiere and David Glass come to mind. And lack of confidence isn't a factor either. He just didn't want to fire his buddy.

Ilitch Sr. Wasn't much better for this franchise on that front until he hired DD. And in present day, we are kinda left hoping that hiring AJ serves a similar purpose lol

Yes, it seems most people take a what have you done for me lately approach to Sr.  There were plenty of poor Tiger teams early on under his ownership.  It doesn’t excuse Jr.  I know some people have this assumption that Jr doesn’t know much about baseball.  It’s funny, the same was said about Sr at the end of the Randy Smith era, but that is all forgotten after Dombrowski turned things around.

Some kind of change needs to be made soon.  They’ve gone through the draft with Avila and will go through the trade deadline with him.  Maybe Avila gets shown the door a few hours after the trade deadline just like “mastermind” Sr did with Dombrowski.

[mtutiger]

26 minutes ago, casimir said:

Yes, it seems most people take a what have you done for me lately approach to Sr.  There were plenty of poor Tiger teams early on under his ownership.  It doesn’t excuse Jr.  I know some people have this assumption that Jr doesn’t know much about baseball.  It’s funny, the same was said about Sr at the end of the Randy Smith era, but that is all forgotten after Dombrowski turned things around.

Some kind of change needs to be made soon.  They’ve gone through the draft with Avila and will go through the trade deadline with him.  Maybe Avila gets shown the door a few hours after the trade deadline just like “mastermind” Sr did with Dombrowski.

I'm younger than most on this board in all likelihood and really started watching and being cognizant of this team around 1996-1997.

Those early years, deep in Mike Ilitch's first few years of ownership, was my introduction to this franchise. I am appreciative of everything that came after 2003, the run to the series in 2006 and the dominance of the early oughts, but I won't ever forget those first few years watching this team. It was as bad, if not worse, as it is now.

I agree with you on Avila needing to be shown the door, obviously. But the bigger thing is point is that the owner only matters insofar that he is signing checks for someone who knows what they are doing. David Glass, who was a terrible owner, hired Dayton Moore, who was the right guy at the right time for the KC Royals, and that was enough to win a WS. That's it.

Owners really are only as good as the personnel they hire. As his dad proved, moving on from bad personnel can change the entire outlook.

Edited August 1, 2022 by mtutiger

[gehringer_2]

53 minutes ago, buddha said:

willIam clay ford was ignorant as to how to run a successful business.  he never ran anything in his life and was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.  he was loyal because he didnt have a clue as to how to run a successful organization.

chris illitch has shown no signs of being able to run a sports team.  sure, his dad wasnt the best in the beginning, but did hire devellano and then dd for the tigers after initial missteps.  chris lucked into steve yzerman and promoted avila and watched him fail and did nothing.

 

major difference was that WCF's incompetence was such that the Ford family made sure he never had any serious input at FoMoCo, OTOH, Mike picked Chris out to the exclusion of his sibs to run the enterprise. That and the continued success of Ilitch enterprises argues that Chris is no-where near the lightweight WCF was. I suppose you can argue that it hasn't all fallen apart because Marion is running everything, but that is probably a stretch.

So I don't think the idea that Chris is incompetent in general works well. That doesn't mean he isn't a bad owner for any number of other possible reasons, but I don't think a comparison to WCF, while tempting,  is particularly apt.

Edited August 1, 2022 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

44 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

major difference was that WCF's incompetence was such that the Ford family made sure he never had any serious input at FoMoCo, OTOH, Mike picked Chris out to the exclusion of his sibs to run the enterprise. That and the continued success of Ilitch enterprises argues that Chris is no-where near the lightweight WCF was. I suppose you can argue that it hasn't all fallen apart because Marion is running everything, but that is probably a stretch.

So I don't think the idea that Chris is incompetent in general works well. That doesn't mean he isn't a bad owner for any number of other possible reasons, but I don't think a comparison to WCF, while tempting,  is particularly apt.

that says more about illitch's OTHER kids...and the people that were put in charge of the business.  not chris.

i'm not sure what about chris' time as head of thr wings and tigers gives you any idea he knows that he's doing.

[Tenacious D]

13 minutes ago, buddha said:

that says more about illitch's OTHER kids...and the people that were put in charge of the business.  not chris.

i'm not sure what about chris' time as head of thr wings and tigers gives you any idea he knows that he's doing.

I think his sister is the only with business savvy.  One is a musician and another is a Fredo.  Not sure about the others, but it appears Chris is the most competent.

[gehringer_2]

20 minutes ago, buddha said:

i'm not sure what about chris' time as head of thr wings and tigers gives you any idea he knows that he's doing.

I think we're arguing two different points. WCF was a rich kid party boy who drank too much and never applied himself to anything in his life - he was basically Atanis. You can criticize C. Ilitch's team management as much as much as you like, but from all evidence he's doing a better job of running a multi-billion enterprise at Little Caesar's than WCF ever did in his dreams. That's why the comparison doesn't hold up. IOW, we may not like the way C I has managed his teams, but the idea that he is incompetent or an un-serious person or can't run a business as a parallel to WCF  as a general proposition doesn't wash.  Maybe he hasn't taken enough interest, maybe he's already written this year off. In the end it how much does it matter why the team loses if they keep losing? The fact is there is nothing they can do at the deadline or the rest of this year that is going to significantly change their timeline now. That said, I'd still like to see Coolbaugh gone.

Edited August 1, 2022 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

9 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I think we're arguing two different points. WCF was a rich kid party boy who drank too much and never applied himself to anything in his life - he was basically Atanis. You can criticize C. Ilitch's team management as much as much as you like, but from all evidence he's doing a better job of running a multi-billion enterprise at Little Caesar's than WCF ever did in his dreams. That's why the comparison doesn't hold up. IOW, we may not like the way C I has managed his teams, but the idea that he is incompetent or an un-serious person or can't run a business as a parallel to WCF  as a general proposition doesn't wash.  Maybe he hasn't taken enough interest, maybe he's already written this year off. In the end it how much does it matter why the team loses if they keep losing? The fact is there is nothing they can do at the deadline or the rest of this year that is going to significantly change their timeline now. That said, I'd still like to see Coolbaugh gone.

its not a matter of doing something at the deadline or saying "the rebuild is over," its promoting a guy who failed at the one job he was asked to do (take over for dd and sign a bunch of free agents...then sell off thosr pieces).  he's failed.  and what did chris do?  he did the easiest thing to do: he promoted him.  

you argue with me about yzerman and the wings, but avila and the tigers is an obvious case of "i dont know what the fuck to do so i'm just going with the guy in front of me."  that's it.  

its incompetence by a guy who doesnt know what to do, so he does the easiest thing he can do.

[gehringer_2]

22 minutes ago, buddha said:

you argue with me about yzerman and the wings, but avila and the tigers is an obvious case of "i dont know what the fuck to do so i'm just going with the guy in front of me."  that's it.  

its incompetence by a guy who doesnt know what to do, so he does the easiest thing he can do.

But as of the end of Spring everyone loved the deals for ERod and Baez and the Tigers had built a bullpen after years of trying, etc., and every one thought the Tigers were finally on their way, even if Baez was only a stand-in for Correa. Since then, absolutely everything has come up weeds this season and everything looks different. But firing people now (except Coolbaugh! 🙄) is probably pointless. Let's see what he does this off-season.

And to be honest, even now, the problem is guys not playing up to their expectations. Normally, the heat for that falls on the manager and coaches, not the GM. In that regard we have a bit of an unusual situation here. TBH, I've been less upset with Avila's 'GM' moves that in the lack of accountability for the hitting and the inconsistency of objectives such as we are seeing with Baddoo.

Still, if everyone stays in place, I won't argue he is too wed to Avila to get this right.

Edited August 1, 2022 by gehringer_2

[mtutiger]

18 minutes ago, buddha said:

its not a matter of doing something at the deadline or saying "the rebuild is over," its promoting a guy who failed at the one job he was asked to do (take over for dd and sign a bunch of free agents...then sell off thosr pieces).  

Didn't Mike I promote that guy?

[buddha]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

Didn't Mike I promote that guy?

even worse, chris extended him after years of failure, lol.

[oblong]

WCF wasn’t “given” the Lions by Ford. The two entities have nothing to do with each other. He was a very wealthy man given his special stock ownership and bought out his partners.  Nobody at the company made that happen. He knew HFII was in charge for the long haul and Lee Iacocca he was right behind him.  WCF was one of the few heavy backers of Lee within the company… that’s not a bad thing. But HFII couldn’t accept him. As he said when he fired him “sometimes you just don’t like a fella” 

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

even worse, chris extended him after years of failure, lol.

In other words, yes, Mike I hired that guy.

Thanks for clarifying 

[sabretooth]

6 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

but to be honest, since errors get harder to earn every year, and esp this year, a constant fielding % probably represents decay. OTOH, advanced stats take a long time to find their level. My guess from watching is that there is nothing wrong with Javy's fielding skill, but that his concentration level may be suffering playing on a non-competitive team. As a pro that absolutely should not happen, but Javy is exactly the king of high strung guy where you might expect it.

I think this is the right take.

His hitting has rebounded to normal in the last 6 weeks while his fielding seems to have slipped.

My fear going forward is that his dreadful start to 2022 (which I think has been caused by a combination of the change in baseballs, the league switch, and probably a 1st contract year letdown, rather than a skill decline, as evidenced by his rebound to normal hitting) will certainly result in a crummy overall 2022 stat line, and if his skills do decline somewhat next year, as he reaches 30 years of age, he will decide that the grass is greener $$-wise here and we will be stuck with his huge contract and mediocre or worse production through 2027....and if the team is not competing, he will have more "lost weekend" lapses in play.

[buddha]

6 hours ago, mtutiger said:

In other words, yes, Mike I hired that guy.

Thanks for clarifying 

consider your nit picked. 

[mtutiger]

Thought exercise for folks: let's hypothetically say that Chris Ilitch does in fact fire Al Avila in the offseason and replaces him with someone who ends up, similar to DD, positioning this team for success in a quicker than expected time frame.

Aside from the fact that it would be an instance of Chris I not learning from his dad's mistakes (which he shouldn't necessarily be forgiven for), how would that otherwise be markedly different than how his Dad's ownership was?

People throw out the Chris I-WCF comparison, but to be honest, back in 2001, someone could have easily drawn the same line between Daddy Pizza and WCF as well.

[chasfh]

14 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

but to be honest, since errors get harder to earn every year, and esp this year, a constant fielding % probably represents decay. OTOH, advanced stats take a long time to find their level. My guess from watching is that there is nothing wrong with Javy's fielding skill, but that his concentration level may be suffering playing on a non-competitive team. As a pro that absolutely should not happen, but Javy is exactly the king of high strung guy where you might expect it.

I do wonder whether Tigers coaching has anything to do with his step back on fielding.

As with pitching and hitting, I would bet that the defensive coaching varies from team and team, and that while some teams may have coaches that can effectively detect issues in someone’s approach to fielding and correct them, other teams may be well behind on that. I don’t know whether that’s the Tigers’ case, but it does make me wonder.