2022 DETROIT TIGERS REGULAR SEASON THREAD

[chasfh]

14 hours ago, buddha said:

it's not patience, it's ignorance and lack of confidence.

he doesnt know anything about the business so he just does nothing.  after all, nothing is the easiest thing to do.

It might also be that when a high-profile business unit is still turning a profit regardless of how terrible they’re performing, it does not create much of an incentive to clean house.

[chasfh]

14 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

And still no shake-up in the coaching staff. Our owner's patience appears to have morphed into softness, which is not the same thing.

I also believe it’s already been said that no coaches are getting fired during the season, since there’s nobody else waiting in the wings who’s any better anyway.

[chasfh]

13 hours ago, buddha said:

willIam clay ford was ignorant as to how to run a successful business.  he never ran anything in his life and was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.  he was loyal because he didnt have a clue as to how to run a successful organization.

chris illitch has shown no signs of being able to run a sports team.  sure, his dad wasnt the best in the beginning, but did hire devellano and then dd for the tigers after initial missteps.  chris lucked into steve yzerman and promoted avila and watched him fail and did nothing.

 

It is true to not everyone, even those born into a tycoon’s family, is cut out to be a top-level executive. To be successful at it, a TLE has to occasionally make hard decisions for the good of the business that affect people’s livelihoods and even reputations; sometimes, they make brutal decisions that cost the jobs or investments of thousands of people all at once; and still others make unethical decisions that are wildly profitable for them that necessarily impoverish or even destroy others. To be successful at being a TLE, you have to be comfortable making decisions like those, or at least be able to live with them. Maybe Baby Doc ins’t exactly that guy. No idea, just building on the topic.

[chasfh]

11 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

And to be honest, even now, the problem is guys not playing up to their expectations. Normally, the heat for that falls on the manager and coaches, not the GM.

I do wonder whether Avila’s front office and Hinch’s staff are on the same page, even if Avila did hire Hinch. Avila still has guys from the old managerial regime doing special scouting assignments for him, e.g., Leyland and Chadd and Pleis doing that one trip to the high school showcase just prior to the draft, and it’s pretty well known that Leyland still hangs around in the role of Avila Whisperer. Leyland’s baseball methods are not only very different from those Hinch subscribes to, they downright clash with each other. So the organization might be disintegrating within because of, or at least parallel to, Machiavellian moves being made behind the scenes by people jockeying for positions of influence. I don’t know that this is the case, but it is plausible enough to speculate on.

[kdog]

I don't want Tucker Barnharts disastrous season to go unnoticed. He's a 31 year old catcher...they age on different curves so he is probably still in his physical prime.

His walk and strikeout rates are in line mostly with last year. The iso% is at .033. He has a .234 slugging% and a -14.3% offensive WAR. wRC+ is 42!!!!

OPS is .491, groundball rate is 56% and barrel % is 1.6%. 

I would DFA him at the same time they send out Robbie Grossman. And this was a good trade...it's just another part of the crap sandwich of a season.

[kdog]

Quote

What if Báez had avoided a career-worst start to the season, where he was the worst offensive player in baseball through mid-June? Even now, he has 10 home runs and a .645 OPS across 89 games. What if Torkelson, struggling to hit fastball down the middle, had looked comfortable in the big leagues? The Tigers demoted the former No. 1 overall pick to Triple-A Toledo on July 17. What if Grossman, Candelario and Schoop hadn't experienced extreme regressions from last year's production? What if Meadows, who has played 36 games and none since June 15, never dealt with a sinus infection, ear infection, vertigo, strains to his right and left Achilles and general soreness? He has not homered in a Tigers uniform.

It's Murphy's Law.

Everything that could have gone wrong, went wrong.

Many fans were excited coming out of spring training. The team committed $235.5 million to four free agents. Hinch traveled with Avila during the non-lockout portion of the offseason. He met prospective players — including Báez (six years, $140 million) and Rodriguez (five years, $77 million) — to pitch the Tigers' plan for the future. National networks talked about the Tigers as a threat heading into 2022.

Many of those same fans are unhappy with Avila. Fans have chanted at games for the longtime general manager to be fired. Avila is taking the blame, and while he deserves some of it, Hinch also played a role in building this year's roster and is the captain of the on-field product.

An on-field product that has been unacceptable.

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2022/08/01/detroit-tigers-sellers-mlb-trade-deadline-how-went-wrong/10183976002/

[Edman85]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

It might also be that when a high-profile business unit is still turning a profit regardless of how terrible they’re performing, it does not create much of an incentive to clean house.

It is exactly this. The team has never been more profitable.

"Winter for Poland and Fraaaaance"

Edited August 1, 2022 by Edman85

[sabretooth]

11 minutes ago, kdog said:

I don't want Tucker Barnharts disastrous season to go unnoticed. He's a 31 year old catcher...they age on different curves so he is probably still in his physical prime.

His walk and strikeout rates are in line mostly with last year. The iso% is at .033. He has a .234 slugging% and a -14.3% offensive WAR. wRC+ is 42!!!!

OPS is .491, groundball rate is 56% and barrel % is 1.6%. 

I would DFA him at the same time they send out Robbie Grossman. And this was a good trade...it's just another part of the crap sandwich of a season.

I never liked this acquisition.  I didn't think he would be THIS bad, but when you factor in his age, the NL/AL league switch, the new deader baseballs, he just went from being bad to being invisible offensively.

His LD% actually was always good, in the mid-20's...this year, it's at an impossible 12.9%, something I've never seen from a regular player.  His FBs have cratered to 30%, and now he's hitting over 55% GB.  His Hard% is at 20%!  How is this possible?  

And he's gotten WORSE in July, with an RC+ of 27!

There is simply no way that his defense could ever be worth starting him again.  He's fine as a defensive backup, but he should never hit.

[Jim Cowan]

If the cash flow is positive, which it undoubtedly is, from selling a lousy product, then he is not an incompetent business owner.  He just isn't a baseball fan.

[chasfh]

1 minute ago, Jim Cowan said:

If the cash flow is positive, which it undoubtedly is, from selling a lousy product, then he is not an incompetent business owner.  He just isn't a baseball fan.

If the owner of our favorite baseball team isn't a baseball fan himself, then what are we doing here?

[Tigerbomb13]

5 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

I never liked this acquisition.  I didn't think he would be THIS bad, but when you factor in his age, the NL/AL league switch, the new deader baseballs, he just went from being bad to being invisible offensively.

His LD% actually was always good, in the mid-20's...this year, it's at an impossible 12.9%, something I've never seen from a regular player.  His FBs have cratered to 30%, and now he's hitting over 55% GB.  His Hard% is at 20%!  How is this possible?  

And he's gotten WORSE in July, with an RC+ of 27!

There is simply no way that his defense could ever be worth starting him again.  He's fine as a defensive backup, but he should never hit.

6 extra base hits in 198 plate appearances (all doubles). That’s astounding. He’s made Greyson Griener look like Mike Piazza. 

[mtutiger]

7 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

If the cash flow is positive, which it undoubtedly is, from selling a lousy product, then he is not an incompetent business owner.  He just isn't a baseball fan.

I don't doubt that the team is more profitable now than ever, but doesn't it stand to reason that it could still be even more profitable fielding a quality product?

It certainly would help the value of the franchise itself which, following the Forbes rankings over the years, for the Tigers, is heavily dependent on whether it's a winning ballclub or not.

Edited August 1, 2022 by mtutiger

[Edman85]

From Forbes data:

 

2021 was the most profitable year in recent history (I have the data back to the 2000's in a sheet somewhere and it is the most in that time). 2020 was a loss, but it was for everybody. That 2019 stinker was the next highest, they profited in 2018, were in the red in 16 and 17, and you can see the contending period before that.

I anticipate this year being pretty solid. New local and national TV deals will pump more money that will offset the money that was lit on fire in free agency.

[Edman85]

4 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I don't doubt that the team is more profitable now than ever, but doesn't it stand to reason that it could still be even more profitable fielding a quality product?

This depends on the revenue sharing model.

[Jim Cowan]

11 minutes ago, chasfh said:

If the owner of our favorite baseball team isn't a baseball fan himself, then what are we doing here?

I don't know what this means.

[gehringer_2]

10 minutes ago, chasfh said:

If the owner of our favorite baseball team isn't a baseball fan himself, then what are we doing here?

Maybe it's been there for him for so long it's become like background. The family has owned the Wings all of his adult life, the Tigers now for 30 yrs. I wonder if for C I "there is always next year" is cooked into his world view and he is too zen about to be the more aggressive owner people want. And if the team is on a reasonable financial footing the just reduces urgency even more.....

[mtutiger]

25 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

I never liked this acquisition.  I didn't think he would be THIS bad, but when you factor in his age, the NL/AL league switch, the new deader baseballs, he just went from being bad to being invisible offensively.

His LD% actually was always good, in the mid-20's...this year, it's at an impossible 12.9%, something I've never seen from a regular player.  His FBs have cratered to 30%, and now he's hitting over 55% GB.  His Hard% is at 20%!  How is this possible?  

And he's gotten WORSE in July, with an RC+ of 27!

There is simply no way that his defense could ever be worth starting him again.  He's fine as a defensive backup, but he should never hit.

I didn't mind the trade at the time and am indifferent to it even now, but in retrospect it was kind of incredible how much Barnhart's acquisition was treated as a tremendous step forward at the position. Not just by the team but also by the media personalities who cover them.

When Rogers comes back, hopefully sometime before the end of the year, they really need to let him go

[Jim Cowan]

17 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Maybe it's been there for him for so long it's become like background. The family has owned the Wings all of his adult life, the Tigers now for 30 yrs. I wonder if for C I "there is always next year" is cooked into his world view and he is too zen about to be the more aggressive owner people want. And if the team is on a reasonable financial footing the just reduces urgency even more.....

I doubt that he eats pizza very often.

[RandyMarsh]

10 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I didn't mind the trade at the time and am indifferent to it even now, but in retrospect it was kind of incredible how much Barnhart's acquisition was treated as a tremendous step forward at the position. Not just by the team but also by the media personalities who cover them.

When Rogers comes back, hopefully sometime before the end of the year, they really need to let him go

Yeah I thought I was missing something in regards to Barnhart when all the positive press or tweets about him came out when we acquired him. I didn't know anything about him beforehand so after the excitement I looked up his numbers and was like "what am I missing?", apparently nothing. 

[RatkoVarda]

same story over and over; player goes outside system, sees improvement

Hinch credited Candelario’s improvements to the work Candelario put in over the All-Star break. He flew directly to Miami, and rather than taking time off, he went to work with his longtime hitting instructor, Frank Valdez.

Candelario says he didn’t make any major adjustments. But finally, things just started to click.

“There were no resources (during the break) so you have to figure it out,” Candelario said. “I was working hard with (Scott Coolbaugh) or Mike (Hessman), and then during the break, I worked with Frank. It was the same thing, just things started to go the right way.”

[Edman85]

5 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

same story over and over; player goes outside system, sees improvement

Hinch credited Candelario’s improvements to the work Candelario put in over the All-Star break. He flew directly to Miami, and rather than taking time off, he went to work with his longtime hitting instructor, Frank Valdez.

Candelario says he didn’t make any major adjustments. But finally, things just started to click.

“There were no resources (during the break) so you have to figure it out,” Candelario said. “I was working hard with (Scott Coolbaugh) or Mike (Hessman), and then during the break, I worked with Frank. It was the same thing, just things started to go the right way.”

This is a pretty universal thing, not just Tigers-specific. Even powerhouses like the Dodgers have guys improve from private instruction.

[Tenacious D]

53 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

I doubt that he eats pizza very often.

At least not Little Caesar’s 

[mtutiger]

24 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

At least not Little Caesar’s 

He strikes me as more of the "knife and fork" type in general lol

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, mtutiger said:

I don't doubt that the team is more profitable now than ever, but doesn't it stand to reason that it could still be even more profitable fielding a quality product?

It certainly would help the value of the franchise itself which, following the Forbes rankings over the years, for the Tigers, is heavily dependent on whether it's a winning ballclub or not.

Maybe it's a case of, given how much money teams make from sources off the field and that are fixed—e.g., advertising, local and national broadcast. licensing, merchandising, digital—any marginal revenue they might make off investing in the product to get better would be so marginal that for owners who aren't particularly concerned about whether the team wins on the field, it doesn't make sense to them to do so. This could be especially true of teams that make up a relatively minor line item for the overall business, such as the Detroit Tigers (estimated revenue ~$268MM) in relation to all of LCE (estimated revenue ~$8,500MM).

I add "might" because, as the reporting goes, they just put a quarter billion dollars into players to field a quality product, and instead they just got worse.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Maybe it's been there for him for so long it's become like background. The family has owned the Wings all of his adult life, the Tigers now for 30 yrs. I wonder if for C I "there is always next year" is cooked into his world view and he is too zen about to be the more aggressive owner people want. And if the team is on a reasonable financial footing the just reduces urgency even more.....

It's pretty well reported how big a hockey fan Baby Doc is, to the point in which he plays in an adult league. No reporting on what the level of his baseball fandom is, but I gotta believe if he were as much a fan of baseball as he is of hockey, we'd be hearing a lot more about that in reporting about him.

You might be right in that it's all the same to him, in that he regards his Detroit Tigers business unit in the same way he regards his real estate or parking business units, but that would be the wrong way to look at a business unit like the Tigers, since they have a public profile—practically a public trust—unlike any other of his other business units, including the pizza. The owner of a major sports franchise should not be treating their team in that way, in which profit trumps quality, because it is a de facto betrayal of that public trust.

Now, I don't know for certain whether this situation applies to Baby Doc's ownership of the Tigers, but if we were to learn that he's not even an honest fan of his own team, let alone a fan of baseball itself, and as such he won't do the investment necessary to maintain that public trust and reward our fandom with honest efforts to put a quality product on the field, simply because he's still making a profit off the awful stewardship of the franchise—then why bother being a fan of the team at all? I myself am not at that point quite yet, but man, even the idea coming up at all ...