2022 DETROIT TIGERS REGULAR SEASON THREAD

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, kdog said:

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2022/08/16/detroit-tigers-gm-search-potential-external-candidates-make-sense/10333135002/

Behind the paywall - any other names mentioned besides Van Wagenen, Gomes and McLeod?

[mtutiger]

13 hours ago, Hart said:

Schoop has one year left on his deal.  He's got enough of a track record I'd bring him back with the idea that a bounce back is a good possibility and Wenceel Perez is waiting in the wings.  If the first month goes poorly next year or Clemens has a big spring training, then maybe that would be the time to cut bait.

Candelario is the biggest disappointment this year in my opinion.  Seemed like he might be the answer long term going into the season.  We could probably get a throw away prospect for him and maybe you take that.   

I hope the Tigers spend some money but even with that, there are going to be some positions we have to bring back our own guys.  

Schoop is definitely gonna get another crack at it in 2023 because of the player option... although like you suggest, hopefully it can be a short leash if production doesn't get better.

Candelario is still a big question mark.... after the week stretch when they played San Diego where he got hot, he's cooled off considerably again and hasn't played great defense either. Will a new GM want to tender him?

[oblong]

Amiel Sawdaye from the D-backs

Dana Brown from the Braves

Matt Arnold from Brewers

Josh Byrnes from Dodgers

Jeff Kingston from Dodgers

Alex Slater from Dodgers

Pete Putila from Astros

Sid Mejdal from the Orioles (by way of NASA!)

Randy Flores from the Cards

 

McLeod interviewed 4 times for GM jobs.   Based on nothing but their current roles I'd say it could go to Sawdaye, McLeod, Byrnes or Slater.  

I won't pretend to know any of them from Adam.  

 

[casimir]

38 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Schoop is definitely gonna get another crack at it in 2023 because of the player option... although like you suggest, hopefully it can be a short leash if production doesn't get better.

Candelario is still a big question mark.... after the week stretch when they played San Diego where he got hot, he's cooled off considerably again and hasn't played great defense either. Will a new GM want to tender him?

If Avila were still around, I would suspect both Schoop & Candelario would be back. 

Now, its just highly questionable.  Nobody knows who will replace Avila, what other moves might occur, etc.  The roster could be revamped such that Candelario and Schoop would be acceptable as end of the lineup types for next season.  I doubt it'll happen, but who knows.

[Tigermojo]

Schoop is guaranteed to get paid. If they release him, are they really going to upgrade much considering the money wasted?

I can see Candy being non tendered and going after a free agent or a trade for third.

[Tiger337]

I think Schoop will be back and will do better next year.  He is still a strong fielder, so it's easier to deal with his weak bat.  Plus, it seems unusual for a middle infielder to completely lose it offensively without losing his fielding ability.  Fielding skill usually deteriorates before hitting.

[bobrob2004]

I would hope the new GM would want to come in and clean house and get the players that he wants.  What we have obviously isn't working, so changes need to be made.  This means getting rid of guys like Schoop, Candelario, Barnhart, both Castros, and yes, even Miggy.  This also might be the time to move Baez to 2B. 

 

C Jake Rogers/Eric Haase

1B Spencer Torkelson

2B Javier Baez

SS Someone New

3B Someone New

LF Akil Baddoo/Victor Reyes

CF Riley Greene

RF Someone New

DH Austin Meadows

 

For the bench, Kody Clemens could easily replace a Castro.  There's still Daz Cameron and Kerry Carpenter for another OF.  Bench players are a dime a dozen, so replenishing these players should be easy.  

You could argue that whoever they get to replace these guys wouldn't be any better than who they currently have (especially if they don't want to raise the payroll).  But the way I see it, the further they get away from the failure of the current management, the better.  

[gehringer_2]

11 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I think Schoop will be back and will do better next year.  He is still a strong fielder, so it's easier to deal with his weak bat.  Plus, it seems unusual for a middle infielder to completely lose it offensively without losing his fielding ability.  Fielding skill usually deteriorates before hitting.

IDK. Most of the time when a guy has a 'bad year' it's because he has one prolonged slump but regained his 'normal' productivity for at least part of the season. Schoop doesn't have a single month over 700 OPS yet and he's starting August even worse at 594. Candelario at least has had one stretch of productivity long enough to give him an OPS of 873 for a full month in July which might hint that there is still some latent hitting skill in there. But the truth is that Candelario's career track record is already one of hot streaks with long periods of non-productivity, so it's easy to take the view that his productive periods are the outliers for him. I don't any confidence in either of them going forward. 

Krieidler's lost time has been really costly with regard to figuring out whether he is an option. It would be doubly bad if confidence in Kreidler makes them feel replacement of Candelario is less urgent and then he turns out to bust as well.

Edited August 16, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Hongbit]

7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I think Schoop will be back and will do better next year.  He is still a strong fielder, so it's easier to deal with his weak bat.  Plus, it seems unusual for a middle infielder to completely lose it offensively without losing his fielding ability.  Fielding skill usually deteriorates before hitting.

We are stuck Baez and he needs to be at 2nd.  His arm is just too wild at SS.    This also may entice Schoop to test the market instead of taking his player option.  

[RatkoVarda]

12 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

C Jake Rogers/Eric Haase

1B Spencer Torkelson

2B Javier Baez

SS Someone New

3B Someone New

LF Akil Baddoo/Victor Reyes

CF Riley Greene

RF Someone New

DH Austin Meadows

I think this is right, minus Victor. Sign one of the 4 free agent SS. Get a bridge to Keith at 3b. Get a RH OF with power thru trade or free agency (though few FA options).

[sabretooth]

Yeah, the FA market really sucks this year.  The new GM is going to have to pull off a couple of trades and hope that they help fill a gap or two.

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, Hongbit said:

We are stuck Baez and he needs to be at 2nd.  His arm is just too wild at SS.    This also may entice Schoop to test the market instead of taking his player option.  

With how he has played this year, there's a less than 0% chance that Schoop is giving up $7 mil to test the market. With the holes they have and with the market as it is, it's hard to see them with any other option than biting the bullet and rolling with him at second. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by mtutiger

[mtutiger]

Daniel Norris 2.0? /s

Edited August 16, 2022 by mtutiger

[RandyMarsh]

Assuming we get a new hitting coach perhaps he can unlock some of that lost power in Schoop, we know he's never gonna be a good obp guy but if he can get back to hitting 20 to 25 hrs with plus defense he would be pretty useful.

Edited August 16, 2022 by RandyMarsh

[Tiger337]

2 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

With how he has played this year, there's a less than 0% chance that Schoop is giving up $7 mil to test the market. With the holes they have and with the market as it is, it's hard to see them with any other option than biting the bullet and rolling with him at second. 

Yes, I think they are stuck with him as well.

[Hongbit]

7 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

With how he has played this year, there's a less than 0% chance that Schoop is giving up $7 mil to test the market. With the holes they have and with the market as it is, it's hard to see them with any other option than biting the bullet and rolling with him at second. 

You are correct.  I didn’t realize how much $7.5M is for a 2nd baseman.   That was a big overpay in hindsight.  

[mtutiger]

11 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Assuming we get a new hitting coach perhaps he can unlock some of that lost power in Schoop, we know he's never gonna be a good obp guy but if he can get back to hitting 20 to 25 hrs with plus defense he would be pretty useful.

His defense gives him a leg up on Candelario IMO. Granted Candy is younger and maybe still has higher potential, but it's hard to trust him in either facet of the game right now. At least Schoop can play a gold glove caliber 2B and theoretically may be able to rebound again. 

For better or worse, it's hard to see the Tigers in a position where they can fill multiple infield positions (2B, 3B, possibly a stopgap 1B), an outfield spot, and possibly another catching spot in this upcoming offseason (not to mention adding pitching as well). Unless it involves trades anyway, and even there, we don't have a great read on what they have with respect to tradeable assets at the moment. So they are kinda stuck triaging their options.... I suspect they will have to do that at catcher (going with Rogers/Haase, unless Rogers stumbles coming back) and will have to at least spare the 2B vacancy with Schoop, which allows them to focus on their other needs.

And, while not ideal, that may be OK in the end. Even some good teams in this league roll out lineups that can have below average production at a couple of positions... I would be happy if they added a couple more 2-WAR guys to the lineup somehow, but we need to be realistic that all of the holes aren't going to filled in one offseason.

Edited August 16, 2022 by mtutiger

[sabretooth]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

IDK. Most of the time when a guy has a 'bad year' it's because he has one prolonged slump but regained his 'normal' productivity for at least part of the season. Schoop doesn't have a single month over 700 OPS yet and he's starting August even worse at 594. Candelario at least has had one stretch of productivity long enough to give him an OPS of 873 for a full month in July which might hint that there is still some latent hitting skill in there. But the truth is that Candelario's career track record is already one of hot streaks with long periods of non-productivity, so it's easy to take the view that his productive periods are the outliers for him. I don't any confidence in either of them going forward. 

Krieidler's lost time has been really costly with regard to figuring out whether he is an option. It would be doubly bad if confidence in Kreidler makes them feel replacement of Candelario is less urgent and then he turns out to bust as well.

Well from May 10 to June 9 (113 PAs) Schoop did have a slash of 255/292/453/747 with a wOBA of 320 and an OPS+ of 109.

The trouble of course is that for the balance of 2022 (both before May 10 and after June 9), Schoop has done this over his other 322 PAs: 190/219/266/485....arrrgh

Schoop looks like Adam Everett the year the Tigers played him full-time....nice glove but non-existent bat.  The only difference was that Everett's bat wasn't much worse than his normal non-existence, but his glove, while good, was no longer elite. 

Schoop looks like he's trying to do what Miggy is doing (guiding the bat for soft-bloopers) and it's not working for either of them.  And if I hear one more person tell me that Miggy is hitting some batting average slightly above .250 as if that makes him a passable hitter I'm gonna scream.

[sabretooth]

15 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

You are correct.  I didn’t realize how much $7.5M is for a 2nd baseman.   That was a big overpay in hindsight.  

Schoop currently has the team's highest WAR among position players.  Even given how horrifying his offense has been, relative to this team, it's some of the best $$ they have spent.

[sabretooth]

Look, I wanted to get rid of Schoop, but his elite D makes him valuable.

[sabretooth]

I think it's fair to speculate that Miggy and Baez may have influenced the team hitting-wise to (a) avoid taking pitches and (b) swing for more contact and softer hits.

I have never seen a team where every f'in hitter from Miggy on down has the same hitting approach as Adam Everett.  NEVER take a pitch. 

Baez at least cuts loose with some mighty swings sometimes, but it's usually in the pursuit of pitches he doesn't hit at all.

The rest of the team has adopted the worst hitting approaches of what passes for our "best" hitters.

I cannot wait to see Miggy go.

Baez has at least cut down on his Ks.

What this team needs more than anything is a complete hitter.  Tork was supposed to be that guy.  Maybe yet.

[Hongbit]

11 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

Schoop currently has the team's highest WAR among position players.  Even given how horrifying his offense has been, relative to this team, it's some of the best $$ they have spent.

Schoop is the tallest dwarf.

[sabretooth]

5 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Schoop is the tallest dwarf.

Yeah, exactly.  He's the leader of the Lollipop Guild.

[sabretooth]

Re-posting from a Game Thread so I can find it more easily later:

They cannot go back to scratch, what would be the point of trying to promise everybody another 5 year rainbow?  You might as well rename them the New Royals and dare people to see an eternally poor product.

And yes, it starts with REASONABLE assumptions as you laid out above.

- Tork, Greene, and Meadows have to each be 2-3 WAR guys, as they were projected to be in 2022, and anybody that says that any of these 3 guys CAN'T do 2-3 WAR each in 2023 doesn't know what they are talking about.  This is not a prediction, this is a screaming need and a reasonable expectation.

- Baez's last two months (115 OPS+, 4+ WAR if he plays his normal D for year) is what we are going to see from him for at least 2023 and no dramatic dropoff through 2024.

- the Bullpen continues to do as well as they have from the beginning of 2021.  

2B, 3B, and LF:

- Schoop continues to provide plus D and somehow is able to stop being a black hole as a hitter and do something more like 80-90 OPS+, which is still bad, but would be a 2+ WAR player with plus D.  Sadly, there really isn't another option in the FA market or in the minors ready-to-go in 2023, and they are paying Schoop $7M.

- They are able to cobble together a non-black-hole situation at 3B, maybe through a combination of Harold and a middling acquisition like Joey Wendle, and maybe they get lucky and Lipcius comes up at some point in 2023 and doesn't suck at 3B, and/or maybe they give Candy a bare-bones one-year contract for the league minimum and see if he can figure out how to hit a baseball again.

- They are able to sign one of the few decent FA OFers or trade for someone decent.  The OF is generally where you hope that D. Cabrera and/or Carpenter also fill a gap decently for 150 PAs or so.

- The Starting Rotation is going to be a plug-and-pray situation.  Hopefully among Skubal, Manning, Turnbull and Brieske, there's enough healthy starts to cover at least 60 starts with decent pitching.  Hopefully they can fill one other slot decently with available healthier options.

That would leave a need for at least one other guy more likely two.  I hate hate hate to depend on Eduardo again, but he may be a necessary option.  That still would leave probably one other guy, a FA or trade acquisition.  Given what little there is to trade, probably a modest FA acquisition.

That's a 3Bman, LFer, and at least one SP....probably two FAs (LF and SP) and a trade acquisition at 3B.

If Meadows, Tork and Greene get it done then they are in the mid-70's...if they hit lighting in a bottle with the other positions maybe they luck their way into a winning season.

It aint much but it's probably all they have to go on at this point. 

[Tigermojo]

Schoop is a streaky hitter so he has a bad year and next will be a great year. Yeah yeah that's the ticket. 

There was a guy like that who would have alternating good and bad seasons. I forget his name.