gehringer_2 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Tiger337 said: I think criticizing that deal is just hindsight. Schoop was more than worth it if he even approached his norms. the deal didn't look bad - the question is whether there was something they should have been looking at and didn't see that would have predicted his collapse before they gave him the $$. If all the stat, film and analysis work gives you no prior indication a player is about to lose it, that's sort of a disappointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 Just now, gehringer_2 said: the deal didn't look bad - the question is whether there was something they should have been looking at and didn't see that would have predicted his collapse before they gave him the $$. If all the stat, film and analysis work gives you no prior indication a player is about to lose it, that's sort of a disappointment. They signed him on August 8 last year when he was batting .291/.335/.468. It would have taken some pretty amazing analysis and film to project his 2022 season at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 Compare Schoop to Baez from age 24 to 29 and they are extremely similar. Baez averaged a couple more HR per year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: They signed him on August 8 last year when he was batting .291/.335/.468. It would have taken some pretty amazing analysis and film to project his 2022 season at that point. Yup. All the metrics in the world go down the drain when the guy that shows up this year just isn't the same guy that showed up last year. It may be the same name and same face, but it ain't the same guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 10 minutes ago, sabretooth said: Compare Schoop to Baez from age 24 to 29 and they are extremely similar. Baez averaged a couple more HR per year. Both are very streaky too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said: This is why I think 2023 will be an "evaluation" year by the new GM. I think both Candy and Schoop are on the opening day roster. I think both are also gone at the trade deadline. Time to evaluate Clemens, Kreidler, Wenceel at the MLB level. Time to try Baez out at 2B. Maybe Lipcius squeezes onto the Tigers as well. Time to sort out the pitching... And evaluate a few other guys that may be another 1 or 2 years away next year (Keith, Dingler ... anyone else? Wilmer Flores?) And then wheel and deal and trade and sign FA's and such after an organizational evaluation... But that's just my guess. Sounds about right...I think I'd give Perez, Dingler and Colt a bit more time, maybe a Sept call up. I advocate using this opportunity to make value acquisitions and trades for younger veterans that wont hold any prospects back. There might be a Carlos Guillen out there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Tiger337 said: Both are very streaky too. Yeah, the major differences of course are in athleticism and style, but the results are very similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 (edited) Baez is a flashy player that played for a high profile team that won the WS. Schoop played in obscurity for bad teams, without the flash, and even his own teams fans failed to appreciate his value (myself included until very recently). Its such a shame and unpredictable that Schoop has been soooo awful with the bat this year. Edited August 17, 2022 by sabretooth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/insider/story/_/id/34407508 Good article about the history of rebuilds since 2000. He breaks it down by the severity of the rebuild, he classified ours as pretty high on the scale, basically as close to tearing it down to the studs as you can get. According to his research in rebuilds like that you should expect it to take 5+ years but if after that 5 or so years there doesn't appear to be progress well you're going to end up like Avila if you're a GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 3B Wilmer Flores was mentioned before (sorry, cannot recall who). Originally I thought, yeah, OK, whatever. But you look at his production, and he would be a triple crown winner for the Tigers. Defensively, he might be no better/worse than Candelario. And maybe Flores is best used as a not quite every day but 4 or 5 days out of a week type of player. But he could be a handy player at 3B/1B if acquired inexpensively. They could go with Clemens/Flores at 3B and focus heavily on another OF and middle IF to try to resurrect the offense for next season. Clemens/Flores would also allow a season at Toledo for Kreidler/Colt/Perez if they are considered reasonable bets for beyond 2023. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said: https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/insider/story/_/id/34407508 Good article about the history of rebuilds since 2000. He breaks it down by the severity of the rebuild, he classified ours as pretty high on the scale, basically as close to tearing it down to the studs as you can get. According to his research in rebuilds like that you should expect it to take 5+ years but if after that 5 or so years there doesn't appear to be progress well you're going to end up like Avila if you're a GM. Decent article, but nowhere in it does it mention the #1 area where the Tigers failed under Avila while other teams completely took off. Player development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted August 17, 2022 Author Share Posted August 17, 2022 12 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: I think so as well... Probably not. The only thing that sits at the back of my mind is that i always want to give enough of a chance to a guy before writing him off. And maybe even one more chance than that. You're probably 100% correct: Clemens is a utility guy... Sometimes though... a guy rises above his expectations and produces more than thought capable. I wouldn't put any money on Clemens doing more than expected... I'd just give him his shot to prove that he can't do more than that... How much you wanna bet that once it dawns on Kody Clemens that he will never be a starting position player, he tries to switch to pitching to save his career? His fastball touches 94, including a 92-mph cutter, and he has already thrown six different types of pitches in his mop-up appearances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 15 hours ago, Tiger337 said: Right, I would love to see them drop Schoop and go with Baez and Correa up the middle, but that is not likely. from your keyboard to god's ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 16 hours ago, Tiger337 said: Right, I would love to see them drop Schoop and go with Baez and Correa up the middle, but that is not likely. If to rich how about Dansby Swanson from Atlanta. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 7 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said: If to rich how about Dansby Swanson from Atlanta. yes please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 Swanson would be good, although his two best years were fueled by high BABIPs. James Dansby Swanson might be a tough sign for the northern Tigers - born and raised in Georgia, College in Vanderbilt, drafted and developed by the Braves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobrob2004 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said: If to rich how about Dansby Swanson from Atlanta. I could see him getting close to $20 million/year as well. I'd like to see them get someone like Isiah Kiner-Falefa, who the Yankees got last year. But they'll likely have to make a trade, as I don't see anyone on the FA market that fits the bill. They're either really expensive (Swanson, Turner, Correa, Bogaerts) or washed up/utility players. I could see Oakland not picking up Elvis Andrus' option, but his defense has really gone south. If they really want to rid themselves of Schoop, they either have to spend a lot of money or go the trade route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 The Braves are so stacked everywhere and with Grissom waiting in the wings I could see them letting Swanson walk. If so I would be more than fine with him, doesn't offer the upside of a Correa or Trea Turner but is very likely going to be a plus player for the foreseeable future. Btw speaking of the Braves, to nobody's surprise Grossman has been tearing it up there, homered last night and now has an .885 OPS with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 7 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said: I I could see Oakland not picking up Elvis Andrus' option, but his defense has really gone south. If they really want to rid themselves of Schoop, they either have to spend a lot of money or go the trade route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 12 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: The Braves are so stacked everywhere and with Grissom waiting in the wings I could see them letting Swanson walk. If so I would be more than fine with him, doesn't offer the upside of a Correa or Trea Turner but is very likely going to be a plus player for the foreseeable future. Btw speaking of the Braves, to nobody's surprise Grossman has been tearing it up there, homered last night and now has an .885 OPS with them. Are the Tigers jinxed? Or is it the energy of a pennant race that makes the player performance better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 16 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said: If they really want to rid themselves of Schoop, they either have to spend a lot of money or go the trade route. i don't think this is a goal nor would it be difficult. keep him around as depth; maybe he can be the bridge at 3rd to Keith; or release him if Kreidler/Clemens/Other is outperforming him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobrob2004 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 8 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said: Did they seriously release him as I was typing that out? Ok, sign him now and see if he's worth keeping for next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said: Are the Tigers jinxed? Or is it the energy of a pennant race that makes the player performance better? Players always get praised for performing well under the pressure of a pennant race, but I've always thought it would be tougher to get yourself up for games when you play for a lousy team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobrob2004 Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said: Are the Tigers jinxed? Or is it the energy of a pennant race that makes the player performance better? He complained about the dimensions of Comerica Park, so maybe he was intentionally tanking so they'd get rid of him. He likely didn't like playing in Detroit, either because of the park, the manager, or the fact the Tigers weren't in contention (or something else entirely). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said: Did they seriously release him as I was typing that out? Ok, sign him now and see if he's worth keeping for next year. is playing a 34 year old SS who has not hit league average for 6 years something they should be doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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