2022 DETROIT TIGERS REGULAR SEASON THREAD

[Motor City Sonics]

Maikel Franco..........................why the hell not?  He'd be our third best hitter.  

[casimir]

13 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Jason Castro would be a good fit for the Tigers.  

Jason Castro seems to be bounced around these parts every other season or something like that.  His BBs and SOs seem way out of whack this season, albeit in playing limited time.

[IdahoBert]

My prized baseball possession, handed to me personally by Hall of Famer Bob Feller during spring training in Tucson 35 years ago. I had been walking on the warning track of one of the practice fields and five balls in a row rolled up to me during BP and I threw all of them back to Mr. Feller and he threw this one back to me and said “Keep it kid you’ve done your work today.“ I was 35 years old and did not think I was a kid but now, oh how I wish I were that kid. So is this just a dirty old ball that’s been used a lot or could some of this be due to pitchers practicing illegal pitches and leaving trace‘s of their handywork on the ball? 

[chasfh]

So maybe someone here knows this, because I don’t: if we go to retain Jeimer for 2023, we will have to go to arbitration with him and he will certainly be due a raise regardless of his replacement level-performance this season. But if we non-tender him, he clears waivers, and then we sign him as a free agent, what is our minimum obligation regarding his comp? Could he be signed for the major league minimum at that point?

[sabretooth]

20 hours ago, chasfh said:

So maybe someone here knows this, because I don’t: if we go to retain Jeimer for 2023, we will have to go to arbitration with him and he will certainly be due a raise regardless of his replacement level-performance this season. But if we non-tender him, he clears waivers, and then we sign him as a free agent, what is our minimum obligation regarding his comp? Could he be signed for the major league minimum at that point?

Yeah, I normally don't care about $$, but given how lousy he's been this year, and given how tight Chris is, I don't want to see them pay Jeimer more than the minimum for 2023.

[sabretooth]

On 8/26/2022 at 7:41 PM, Motor City Sonics said:

Maikel Franco..........................why the hell not?  He'd be our third best hitter.  

He'd fit right in with Schoop and Candy with that sporty 72 OPS+

[chasfh]

5 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

Yeah, I normally don't care about $$, but given how lousy he's been this year, and given how tight Chris is, I don't want to see them pay Jeimer more than the minimum for 2023.

So are you saying that under MLB rules, they can non-tender him, then sign him to a minimum contract?

[RatkoVarda]

6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

So are you saying that under MLB rules, they can non-tender him, then sign him to a minimum contract?

correct; the only team that has contractual limits on Candy is the Tigers; they must offer him 80% of his 2022 salary to retain him thru arbitration. When they don't do that, any team including Detroit can then sign him for the minimum or above.

 

[1984Echoes]

If they non-tender him... they might not be able to negotiate with him for a specified amount of time - I forget the rules - but if they end up giving the best offer in the market to him, whenever they can... then yes, it can be any amount.

It's not going to be any technical minimum (vet's minim for example...); or, I just don't believe that. But it would probably be less than this year's salary. $5 mill for 1 year? Unless... there's another team out there that's desperate for a 3B'man? That offers him 3 years $20 mill? I have no idea who would want him and for how much...

But...

I would rather tender him.

He's a stop gap. You get him for 1 year. At an Arb salary. I don't care about the money. And then... hope someone in the system can push him out of a job. If he's doing crappy again, you just move on. If he has a resurgence next year and 2-ish WAR at the deadline, then... you trade him at the deadline for whatever you can get.

I don't think Keith will be ready by next deadline.

But even if it's Clemens or Kreidler or Lipcius or whoever, it's another stop gap until Keith actually shows that he deserves the position or that he doesn't and we need a more suitable/ expensive option.

If I'm the new GM, I don't want to make any knee-jerk decisions. I take 2023 to review the roster, review the minors, etc., etc...  And start discarding/ upgrading/ trading guys beginning at next year's deadline.

But I keep Jeimer for 1 more year, tender him, and figure it out in 2023...

But that's just me.

[RatkoVarda]

The Athletic ($) has a piece from Cody how Tork and Kriedler's stumbles have screwed up 2023 plans.

Could write same article about Meadows and Baddoo and Candy and Schoop and Miggy and ...

https://theathletic.com/3534996/2022/08/25/spencer-torkelson-ryan-kreidler-tigers/

 

[1984Echoes]

Put another way: 

Here's a list of problem positions for the Tigers in 2023... which positions do we find internal answers for and which ones external? At the end of the exercise, how many positions do you want external solutions for, what level of talent, and how much money for each external position solution?

2023 problem positions, and the current player/ problem in 2022:

Starting catcher (2022 Tucker Barnhart, problem)

Starting 1st Baseman (Tork is in AAA)

Starting 2nd Baseman (Jon Schoop, not a long term answer)

Starting SS (Baez having problems with throwing at SS)

Starting 3rd Baseman (Candy should be a 1 year stopgap at best)

Starting LF'er (Baddoo is still struggling badly)

Starting RF'er (Reyes should be a 4th OF'er)

DH: (Miggy is done for)

Starting Rotation Pitchers, after Eduardo & Manning:

3rd Rotation Starter (???)

4th Rotation Starter (???)

5th Rotation Starter (???)

 

[1984Echoes]

This tells me there are too many problems to fix.

So I go internal first to see how many can fixed, internally, and evaluate after 2023 season how many/ how much money must be used on external players on positions that can't be fixed internally.

That's my recommendation.

[RatkoVarda]

Paredes hit 6 home runs last night (edit: OK only 2). Trade is trending to a Saurez-level disaster.

[1984Echoes]

To me it's embarrassing that a team can't evaluate its OWN players correctly and end up giving away a player that they should have held onto.

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

Paredes hit 6 home runs last night (edit: OK only 2). Trade is trending to a Saurez-level disaster.

I've been assured that if you extend that range back to July 5, you will see he has been struggling at the dish recently.

[Jim Cowan]

Paredes can stink for 7 straight weeks and all is quiet here.  Then he has a good weekend and the Rays fleeced the Tigers.

[KL2]

50 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

Paredes hit 6 home runs last night (edit: OK only 2). Trade is trending to a Saurez-level disaster.

 

47 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

To me it's embarrassing that a team can't evaluate its OWN players correctly and end up giving away a player that they should have held onto.

to be fair not one person lamented giving up Parades in March. 

[buddha]

i didnt lament the paredes trade.  i thought he'd never amount to much.  i was a bit worried that the rays would turn him into something, but oh well.  ya gotta give up something to get something.

that said, paredes has been "ok".  not a world beater.  its the meadows part that has killed us.   meadows should have been a solid addition to the lineup but instead has been a microcosm of the whole team: underachieving and injured.

if parades had stayed here, i suspect he would also be doing poorly and/or be hurt.

but even for those of us - like me - who didnt think paredes would ever come good, the trade is sort of symbolic for the whole organization.  the rays identify cheap players and trade overvauled players for them.  and then make the cheap players into a coherent, largely successful organization.  the tigers lately have not done that.  and since they no longer have a gm who has a proven ability to identify big league talent and an owner willing to pay that talent, they fail.

we'll have to see if chris eventually develops into mike.  as many here point out, mike was pretty bad at this for a while too.

[casimir]

33 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Paredes can stink for 7 straight weeks and all is quiet here.  Then he has a good weekend and the Rays fleeced the Tigers.

I wish we could bring back the Suarez for Simon thread.

[RandyMarsh]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

I wish we could bring back the Suarez for Simon thread.

Unlike the Parades trade where just about everybody was for IIRC there was some apprehension about the Simon trade, not only due to Suarez but also Simon's peripherals and second half collapse the previous season and not to mention giving up our first round pick Johnathan Crawford from the prior draft.

I remember the first tweet that got the ball rolling said something to the effect of "Tigers are set to acquire a Reds starting pitcher", at the time we hoped it may have been Cueto who was still dominant at the time or at the very least Homer Bailey who was still a plus guy but then when it was announced it was Simon I do remember quite a bit of disappointment among guys on here and I know I was one of them. I of course didn't expect Suarez to end up as good as he was but I thought he had enough promise along with a 1st round pick in Crawford to fetch somebody better than Simon. 

[Tiger337]

7 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Unlike the Parades trade where just about everybody was for IIRC there was some apprehension about the Simon trade, not only due to Suarez but also Simon's peripherals and second half collapse the previous season and not to mention giving up our first round pick Johnathan Crawford from the prior draft.

I remember the first tweet that got the ball rolling said something to the effect of "Tigers are set to acquire a Reds starting pitcher", at the time we hoped it may have been Cueto who was still dominant at the time or at the very least Homer Bailey who was still a plus guy but then when it was announced it was Simon I do remember quite a bit of disappointment among guys on here and I know I was one of them. I of course didn't expect Suarez to end up as good as he was but I thought he had enough promise along with a 1st round pick in Crawford to fetch somebody better than Simon. 

The Tigers were active that December:

December 5 - traded Robbie Ray for Shane Greene in three team trade.

December 14 - traded Porcello for Cespedes.  At the same time, there was a report they were also about to acquire a starting pitcher from the Reds to replace Porcello.  There was a lot of discussion about who it might be.  I remember hoping it wouldn't be Simon.  

December 14 (later) - traded Suarez for Simon.  I wasn't too worried about giving up Suarez, but I didn't really like seeing them give up any decent prospect for Simon.  I don't remember any outrage, but I remember a lot of people didn't like the trade.  A BABIP debate followed.  

 

 

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, KL2 said:

 

to be fair not one person lamented giving up Parades in March. 

And that would include me.

Happy to get Meadows (who hasn't turned out for us) and gotta trade something to get something.

This isn't so much about Paredes (I mean, it is...)

It's about the Organizations lack of ability to fully realize the potential of their OWN players BEFORE they come to the conclusion that the guy is nothing but trade fodder. If they trade Torkelson this winter to the A's for Adam Oller because... hey, we need another starter... that's not going to go over well.

What if Paredes doesn't fall off? What if he does turn into Eugenio Suarez 2.0? Suarez hit a .650 OPS in 277 PA's with Detroit, and then over an .800 OPS over the next 8 years for teams other than the Tigers. Don't we want that player? Paredes had a roughly .600 OPS in 193 PA's with Detroit, and now a .790 OPS in limited PA's with Tampa.

Unlike buddha, I think this guy actually does have the talent to be a Suarez 2.0.

But again, I am not upset about the trade per se, even though it hasn't worked in our favor to-date, as much as I am upset at the Org's INABILITY to EVALUATE our guys properly. I think Paredes should have been the 2nd Baseman this year, not Schoop. And I thought that last year too, so this is not new. Schoop should have been traded at the deadline last year because he was a productive veteran. That's it (IMO). The winning was great, so I get why they didn't do that.... But we're still in a rebuild... why aren't we acting like it?

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, buddha said:

... the trade is sort of symbolic for the whole organization.  the rays identify cheap players and trade overvalued players for them.  and then make the cheap players into a coherent, largely successful (productive player) organization.  the tigers lately have not done that.  and since they no longer have a gm who has a proven ability to identify big league talent and an owner willing to pay that talent, they fail....

Yeah...

Basically, that's my point.

[1984Echoes]

37 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

The Tigers were active that December:

December 5 - traded Robbie Ray for Shane Greene in three team trade.

December 14 - traded Porcello for Cespedes.  At the same time, there was a report they were also about to acquire a starting pitcher from the Reds to replace Porcello.  There was a lot of discussion about who it might be.  I remember hoping it wouldn't be Simon.  

December 14 (later) - traded Suarez for Simon.  I wasn't too worried about giving up Suarez, but I didn't really like seeing them give up any decent prospect for Simon.  I don't remember any outrage, but I remember a lot of people didn't like the trade.  A BABIP debate followed.  

I hated giving up on Ray so fricking quick. Greene was a nice pitcher, but... I just hated dumping Ray that damn fast...

Porcello for Cespedes was a good trade for us.

I also don't remember much of what I thought about Eugenio at that time... But we got Simon when he was going to be 34 that year. He was a horseshit pitcher with a higher than 1.45 WHIP, until two good years at 32 and 33 with the Reds where he got his WHIP down to 1.07 (as a reliever) and 1.21 (as a starter...). I don't know where BABIP even would come into this discussion... he was old, over the hill, and never very good to begin with. Oh yeah, BABIP maybe because the discussion was that the 33 y.o. 1.21 WHIP was a lucky aberration? Maybe, I don't remember that part. 

I just remember hating that trade because Simon was horse manure. Regardless of whatever talent Suarez and Crawford turned out to be....

[SoCalTiger]

4 hours ago, RatkoVarda said:

Paredes hit 6 home runs last night (edit: OK only 2). Trade is trending to a Saurez-level disaster.

Yup. Who trades a young player who has clearly demonstrated a solid understanding of the strike zone and does well in the league he is playing in despite being significantly younger than the competition. And adds in a high draft pick on the heels of many years of losing seasons. 
 

An idiot that’s who. The Rays fleeced him and are in mourning since his firing. this really bugs me.