2022 DETROIT TIGERS REGULAR SEASON THREAD

[bobrob2004]

46 minutes ago, AlaskanTigersFan said:

Whatever happened to "The Ceasar". The miracle Scouting program that would take analytics to a whole new level? Did they ditch it or what?

They are already at the new level.  What do you think? 

[mtutiger]

18 minutes ago, chasfh said:

It wouldn’t accomplish anything if he simply were replaced by the loyalists from the early DD era.

I think it’s a highly bifurcated front office team now, split between the long timers and the new breed like Sartori, Menzin and Garko. I wouldn’t doubt if there’s a bit of push me-pull you jockeying going on in the office. 

Sartori/Menzin kinda seem like the next in line, at least based on some of the reporting by Stavenhagen and some of the other beat writers. It's hard to say though, this org plays everything really close to the vest.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Al Avila ain’t getting fired as long as the Ilitches own the team.

I don't think that is quite fair. They 'owed' a lot more 'loyalty' to Kenny Holland, who in all honesty could be argued had more time and accomplishment in his resume than Avila, but Chris still broomed him. It was done with kid gloves, but nothing wrong with that either.

[gehringer_2]

So tomorrow: Al Avila to Sr. Pres of Ops.; AJ Hinch to GM; Don Kelly in as manager.

Is everyone happy? Does it affect anyone on the current team's slump?

Edited May 13, 2022 by gehringer_2

[mtutiger]

33 minutes ago, oblong said:

Firing Avila would feel good but I don't see what it would accomplish.  I think he's got a good team under him and I assume they would just take over.  

There's a lot of anger, justifiably, for the fact that after five plus years, the rebuild isn't over. I don't blame people for being angry about that. But what is sort of exhausting about the discussion is the inability for a good portion of the fanbase to compartmentalize the fact that Avila has, on the whole, done a poor job during the rebuild from the fact that circumstances have changed for the organization a lot over the past couple of years, in terms of reorganizing at the minor league level, bringing in AJ Hinch, Chris Fetter, etc., who both appear to be leaving their own marks on the organization, etc.

Maybe all of this stuff can be true at the same time.

 

[mtutiger]

16 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I don't think that is quite fair. They 'owed' a lot more 'loyalty' to Kenny Holland, who in all honesty could be argued had more time and accomplishment in his resume than Avila, but Chris still broomed him. It was done with kid gloves, but nothing wrong with that either.

And for as much **** as Pizza Jr gets for "loyalty", I came of age as a baseball fan watching Pizza Sr hoist Stanley Cups while watching him let this franchise wither on the vine. 

He eventually wised up and parted with Smith, but the old man (who the fan base tends to be more nostalgic about) wasn't much better on that score. He was lucky to find DD, maybe in the same way that Jr was lucky to find Hinch.

Edited May 13, 2022 by mtutiger

[RatkoVarda]

10 hours ago, AlaskanTigersFan said:

I still think there's more too it. His Barrel % and Hard hit rates are above league average. His BABIP is .225. I think there's some more to it. But yes, I'll eat crow if he's not gonna live up to expectations. I still think he can be a solid contributor batting close to .290/.350/.475 type line. I'll take that with average defense which I think he can do. Just a hunch though.

Daniel Cabrera was a 3 year SEC starter and then in his first pro games in A+ he had a .695 OPS. Not great, but totally fine production, but then the organizational geniuses decided to give him a month in AA and he tanks. Back at AA, he has been even worse. The best you can say is he's stalled, but the current results are just awful.

He is literally the worst player in the Eastern League (min 100 PAs)

[AlaskanTigersFan]

2 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

Daniel Cabrera was a 3 year SEC starter and then in his first pro games in A+ he had a .695 OPS. Not great, but totally fine production, but then the organizational geniuses decided to give him a month in AA and he tanks. Back at AA, he has been even worse. The best you can say is he's stalled, but the current results are just awful.

He is literally the worst player in the Eastern League (min 100 PAs)

Lets give him a month an see what happens. Like I said, I could be wrong...... According to my wife, I haven't been correct with anything in 20 years........ 

[gehringer_2]

29 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

And for as much **** as Pizza Jr gets for "loyalty", I came of age as a baseball fan watching Pizza Sr hoist Stanley Cups while watching him let this franchise wither on the vine. 

He eventually wised up and parted with Smith, but the old man (who the fan base tends to be more nostalgic about) wasn't much better on that score. He was lucky to find DD, maybe in the same way that Jr was lucky to find Hinch.

I think every ownership is lucky when they find a  good GM. I doubt there is an ownership in the league who would be competent to run their team directly (assuming he/she/they wanted to). 

[romad1]

44 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

So tomorrow: Al Avila to Sr. Pres of Ops.; AJ Hinch to GM; Don Kelly in as manager.

Is everyone happy? Does it affect anyone on the current team's slump?

I salute our new Don Kelly overlords

[mtutiger]

4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I think every ownership is lucky when they find a  good GM. I doubt there is an ownership in the league who would be competent to run their team directly (assuming he/she/they wanted to). 

I live in DFW and, by extension, get to follow the Dallas Cowboys by default.

Trust me, I know 🤣

[kdog]

Firing Avila is performative. It's also a way for the parking lot king to deflect his role in this disastrous rebuild. They didn't do anything aside from tanking and drafting high. And drafting by nature is not a sure thing. Their player development team was lead by a losing dinosaur who was only removed in late 2021.

The owner froze spending and left Avila to his own devices to find efficiencies outside of the draft. Instead, in year 5(or 7), we are relying on the Castro brothers, Eric Haase, and other sub replacement level players to fill out a roster.

It's somebody's fault that every hitter is broken. I don't know who to blame specifically. But in year 5(or7), I was hopeful that the major league product would be better. And with their track record of developing and promoting players, do they have much credibility that any of these prospects will succeed over the long term? 

[oblong]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

There's a lot of anger, justifiably, for the fact that after five plus years, the rebuild isn't over. I don't blame people for being angry about that. But what is sort of exhausting about the discussion is the inability for a good portion of the fanbase to compartmentalize the fact that Avila has, on the whole, done a poor job during the rebuild from the fact that circumstances have changed for the organization a lot over the past couple of years, in terms of reorganizing at the minor league level, bringing in AJ Hinch, Chris Fetter, etc., who both appear to be leaving their own marks on the organization, etc.

Maybe all of this stuff can be true at the same time.

 

I think that's the case.  Avila's reign can be split into two paths.  Mike Ilitch alive and Mike Ilitch dead.

 

[oblong]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

And for as much **** as Pizza Jr gets for "loyalty", I came of age as a baseball fan watching Pizza Sr hoist Stanley Cups while watching him let this franchise wither on the vine. 

He eventually wised up and parted with Smith, but the old man (who the fan base tends to be more nostalgic about) wasn't much better on that score. He was lucky to find DD, maybe in the same way that Jr was lucky to find Hinch.

I've said this many times but it's hard to fault Ilitch in some ways with the first 10 years of owning the Tigers.

He didn't have any baseball contacts.  He hires John McHale Jr, a well respected guy around the league.  The keep the early 90 teams propped up a bit then start over.  He hires Randy Smith, son of Tal.  Respected baseball family.  He hires Buddy Bell.  Respected baseball family.  On the face that sounds like a solid foundation.  The near .500 ish seasons of 1997 and 2000 were bad things in retrospect.  Gave just enough of an appearance that maybe things were moving in the right direction.

Buddy Bell was fired because he confronted Smith, wanting an extension, and Smith pointed to the record, and Buddy says "These guys all suck".  Randy says "Maybe it's not them, maybe it's you."

It was them.

 

[RatkoVarda]

20 minutes ago, kdog said:

Firing Avila is performative.

agree, but I think 100% of us would enjoy that performance

[SoCalTiger]

I agree with the sentiment that Chris I will never fire Al. So we’re stuck . 
 

We need to take out the trash and look to 2023. Hate. Hate to say that. 
Both Castro’s, Hasse (love him) Hill all need to go. Reyes needs to play every day the remainder of the year. He is best option of the retreads to bloom though odds are low. He’s never had that chance. 
 

When performance improves trade Schoop Grossman Candy Fullmer Soto Alexander Joey plus the trash for position players that can field and are close to the majors. Build depth   Not getting stars or prospects for this bunch. But sold major league players can be had.  Then you can audition Clemens and maybe Badoo and Shoort again. 

Miggy needs to play less and bought out for 2023

The core of remaining pitchers plus Baez Tork Greene is thin but with some solid trades and off season signings we can do much better in 2023

[SoCalTiger]

Meadows is a core piece also. 

[kdog]

the firing would be performative and correct. I don't want him being in charge of extracting value from this roster at the trade deadline. 

[mtutiger]

12 minutes ago, kdog said:

the firing would be performative and correct. I don't want him being in charge of extracting value from this roster at the trade deadline. 

In the last calender year, the Tigers front office turned Daniel Norris into a Top 10 Top 20 org prospect and turned Isaac Paredes and a compensational pick into Austin Meadows.

That may be the doing of others as much as Avila, but I don't know how you can look at those and call them bad trades.

Edited May 13, 2022 by mtutiger

[gehringer_2]

well, whatever. I'm hoping the team management doesn't panic to the degree we all have because that always leads to bad decisions. You have a whole team slumping out of the gate at the plate at once. That is a very weird, outlier event. 

Nobody other than the players themselves, or maybe the coaches and Hinch, can have any impact on that now. And when they pull out of it we will never know if Hinch and the coaches had helped or were making it worse, because it's not likely to repeat itself. And it if does, then you do lay it exactly on the coaching staff for doing something dramatically wrong in setting up the team for the season for the third time.

Edited May 13, 2022 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

I don't think that is quite fair. They 'owed' a lot more 'loyalty' to Kenny Holland, who in all honesty could be argued had more time and accomplishment in his resume than Avila, but Chris still broomed him. It was done with kid gloves, but nothing wrong with that either.

I don’t see how it’s unfair, although I must admit I don’t know enough about Ken Holland to hold forth on his situation. 

[buddha]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

I don't think that is quite fair. They 'owed' a lot more 'loyalty' to Kenny Holland, who in all honesty could be argued had more time and accomplishment in his resume than Avila, but Chris still broomed him. It was done with kid gloves, but nothing wrong with that either.

but isnt that just because yzerman became available?

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, buddha said:

but isnt that just because yzerman became available?

What does that actually mean? Maybe Chris replaces Avila exactly when some guy he's been watching and likes becomes available.

Edited May 13, 2022 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

7 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

What does that actually mean? Maybe Chris replaces Avila exactly when some guy he's been watching and likes becomes available.

im just saying youre giving chris credit for firing holland when he may have only done it because yzerman became available.  any idiot would have made that move if presented.

i think you may be giving chris a little too much credit.  it strikes me as a situation where he came in and didnt know a lot and he just stuck with the guy already in charge.  in avila's case, everyone seems to think chris is sold on avila suddenly hiring a bunch of analytical guys. 

that's better than what we had before i suppose, but that doesnt mean we couldnt have done better.  and regardless of the results this year, its the continued results (or lack thereof) from the farm system other than the first round picks that is concerning to us and should be concerning to chris.

i think avila's continued employment screams of an owner who is uninformed and doesnt want to make a decision if he doesnt have to.  is he really that impressed by avila's supposed foray into analytics five to ten years after every else did it?  and five years after avila was first placed in charge?  i hope not.

[gehringer_2]

5 minutes ago, buddha said:

im just saying youre giving chris credit for firing holland when he may have only done it because yzerman became available.  any idiot would have made that move if presented.

 

LOL - pretty selective logic given another 'idiot' like Mike Ilitch let Yzerman walk when he was ready for Kenny's job.

Edited May 13, 2022 by gehringer_2