gehringer_2 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) 19 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: You guys don't remember why DD was axed? He openly/ publicly flirted with the Boston Red Sox over their open GM job. Ilitch fired DD BEFORE the Price/ Soria/ Cespedes trades (everyone wondered why he was handling deadline trades when Ilitch had already demanded his resignation). Mike was PISSED with DD's disloyalty to the Tigers... that he had the audacity to publicly flirt with the Red Sox while still Detroit's GM. I think he was given "two weeks notice", which covered the trade deadline, or something along those lines. He was officially released by the Tigers on August 4th, 2015. He was hired by the Boston Red Sox to be their new GM on August 18th, 2015. Correct. If you want to go back a little further, I think you find increasing cases of Dombrowski talking about 'ownership' like a foreign entity. They were drifting apart - possibly over differing objectives for the team. There was one episode I can't give you the details about but it struck me clearly that Dave had wanted to pursue some line of action Mike vetoed and the way DD commented was pretty much not that he had tried to talk to Mike or persuade him, but that he done a petulant, "fine, you're the boss" and walked away from what he thought was the better course. It was a fractured relationship and that is probably what led him to be looking for a new landing pad - which as you note, would have been the last straw for Mike. Edited June 16, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
microline133 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 40 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Now that was one seriously fucked up draft!!! And that draft netted Avila and Dirks. By most measures it was a successful draft just by virtue of those two players, even with Dirks' career ending quickly, add without considering the Tigers got 100+ appearances of effective relief work from Perry in 2009-2010. It just illustrates the point that it only takes 1-2 solid players to make a draft successful, the rest is noise. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 Jeff Luhnow is still available. If you were fine with Hinch, you should be fine with Luhnow. I say fire Avila and hire Luhnow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 49 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Right now, at this point in time, it is. Bullshit. How many more losing season are necessary to determine that Avila is not the person to build a winner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 2 hours ago, oblong said: I’ve come to think that DD started poking around for jobs and Ilitch does not tolerate disloyalty. Fedorov signing that offer sheet with Carolina ensured his number will never go to the rafters. Sparky bailed on the lockout refusing replacement players so they waited until he died. this. Illitch got wind of DD looking at other jobs and he fired him. loyalty to the family uber alles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 43 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Jeff Luhnow is still available. If you were fine with Hinch, you should be fine with Luhnow. I say fire Avila and hire Luhnow. i would do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 5 hours ago, buddha said: carlos correa: 307/376/460 javy baez: 188/232/288 just in case anyone wants to argue again that we got the better deal with javy... I was fine not getting Correa (I would have loved him for the price Minn. paid!) but I would have been happier with Story vs. Baez. Baez is hitting sooooo badly, even with the NL to AL switch issue factored in, it's insane. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 alex cora got another managing job, so will aj hinch. baseball teams look at talent and success more than whether someone hit some trash cans. (because theyre all cheating....ask the yankees) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 Just now, sabretooth said: I was fine not getting Correa (I would have loved him for the price Minn. paid!) but I would have been happier with Story vs. Baez. Baez is hitting sooooo badly, even with the NL to AL switch issue factored in, it's insane. that's the thing, the twinkies got him on a perfecr deal and were stuck with baez's decline years for the next half decade. i can understand not wanting correa for 10 years, but for what the twins paid? its a no brainer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said: Right now, at this point in time, it is. After 7 years of abject failure to build anything resembling a functioning farm system (assuming you absolve AA for the state of the farm system when he became GM), or to draft/develop ANY top-100 positional talent or even average positional players (excluding the two tank picks Tork and Greene), or to win beyond the 2016 team's modest 86 win season. If you cannot fire a GM like this at this point, you really should not own a team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabretooth Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, buddha said: that's the thing, the twinkies got him on a perfecr deal and were stuck with baez's decline years for the next half decade. i can understand not wanting correa for 10 years, but for what the twins paid? its a no brainer. Yeah, definitely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 6 minutes ago, buddha said: that's the thing, the twinkies got him on a perfecr deal and were stuck with baez's decline years for the next half decade. i can understand not wanting correa for 10 years, but for what the twins paid? its a no brainer. I think a lot of teams would have given Correa the same deal as the Twins did. IIRC the Tigers offered Correa more guaranteed money than any other team. They moved on to plan B and Correa ended up with this Twins deal. I have to imagine if this deal was on the table when the Tigers negotiated with him, they would have done it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said: I think a lot of teams would have given Correa the same deal as the Twins did. IIRC the Tigers offered Correa more guaranteed money than any other team. They moved on to plan B and Correa ended up with this Twins deal. I have to imagine if this deal was on the table when the Tigers negotiated with him, they would have done it. quite possibly. if so, its yet another failure to read the market by al avila. but we'll never really know what they offered correa and why he turned them down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 The Tigers wanted to get cost certainty before the lockout. That's why they got Baez. Before the lockout, Correa was asking for over $300 million and settled for peanuts afterwards. If you want to kill the Tigers for not reading how things would look after the lockout, that's fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 16, 2022 Author Share Posted June 16, 2022 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: Unless he does it soon, the failure to pull the Tigers out of this swoon will also weight heavily against him with owners like Moreno who think that is exactly what a manager must be able to do. On the other hand, Moreno hired Brad Ausmus, who led the Tigers from the playoffs to a 98-loss season. Hinch has a ring. Owners and GMs respect that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, buddha said: quite possibly. if so, its yet another failure to read the market by al avila. but we'll never really know what they offered correa and why he turned them down. How is it a failure by Avila to read the market? It seems quite opposite. Correa wanted Lindor money but the Tigers reported offer of $275 million was the highest. Considering it's reported no one went above that, it seems Avila read the market just fine. Other teams filled their SS positions so Correa, not getting the $350 million he wanted, opted for the short term contract to re-enter free agency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 4 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: How is it a failure by Avila to read the market? It seems quite opposite. Correa wanted Lindor money but the Tigers reported offer of $275 million was the highest. Considering it's reported no one went above that, it seems Avila read the market just fine. Other teams filled their SS positions so Correa, not getting the $350 million he wanted, opted for the short term contract to re-enter free agency. because the tigers could have waited and then signed him to a similar deal the twins got him for, in theory. the twins needed a ss too (although unlike us, they have prospects at the position), and instead of paying baez they bided their time and ended up with a much better player on a much more palatable deal. Al got turned down by correa (we believe) and then paid baez on a long term deal. Al has a long history of not reading the market (jd martinez trade, verlander trade, failing to deal boyd) so i'm putting my eggs in the "Al misread things again" basket. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 16, 2022 Author Share Posted June 16, 2022 7 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: I think a lot of teams would have given Correa the same deal as the Twins did. IIRC the Tigers offered Correa more guaranteed money than any other team. They moved on to plan B and Correa ended up with this Twins deal. I have to imagine if this deal was on the table when the Tigers negotiated with him, they would have done it. I agree with you, Correa would have done the same deal with the Tigers if we'd come to him with it first. Correa didn't want the guaranteed money if it was going to be only 275, or whatever it was, for basically the rest of his career. It was well-known months in advance he was expecting way into the threes, at least, and he would never have gotten that with the Tigers. The Tigers not only lowballed him—I bet the Tigers knew they were lowballing him and were hoping to either luck into a yes, or hoping he'd say no so they could be seen as making an effort without spending a penny. I honestly don't know which. The Twins deal is great for Correa because he has now established a baseline of $35 million a year. That means, if he has a good year—and he is having a good year, on his way to 6+ WAR—a team is going to have to come at him with $36MM AAV, minimum. Since he's going into his age 28 season, I think his fair minimum asking will be 10/360. And if he has an uncharacteristically healthy year, he could exceed that pretty handily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 1 minute ago, chasfh said: I agree with you, Correa would have done the same deal with the Tigers if we'd come to him with it first. Correa didn't want the guaranteed money if it was going to be only 275, or whatever it was, for basically the rest of his career. It was well-known months in advance he was expecting way into the threes, at least, and he would never have gotten that with the Tigers. The Tigers not only lowballed him—I bet the Tigers knew they were lowballing him and were hoping to either luck into a yes, or hoping he'd say no so they could be seen as making an effort without spending a penny. I honestly don't know which. The Twins deal is great for Correa because he has now established a baseline of $35 million a year. That means, if he has a good year—and he is having a good year, on his way to 6+ WAR—a team is going to have to come at him with $36MM AAV, minimum. Since he's going into his age 28 season, I think his fair minimum asking will be 10/360. And if he has an uncharacteristically healthy year, he could exceed that pretty handily. cause Al Avila sucks at his job. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 1 minute ago, buddha said: because the tigers could have waited and then signed him to a similar deal the twins got him for, in theory. the twins needed a ss too (although unlike us, they have prospects at the position), and instead of paying baez they bided their time and ended up with a much better player on a much more palatable deal. Al got turned down by correa (we believe) and then paid baez on a long term deal. Al has a long history of not reading the market (jd martinez trade, verlander trade, failing to deal boyd) so i'm putting my eggs in the "Al misread things again" basket. But the Tigers offered Correa more money than anybody else. All the top free agent SS signed for more total money than Correa so I guess the Tigers, along with the Rangers and Red Sox misread the market as well. It seems Correa misread the market as he thought he was worth more than he was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 16, 2022 Author Share Posted June 16, 2022 3 minutes ago, buddha said: because the tigers could have waited and then signed him to a similar deal the twins got him for, in theory. the twins needed a ss too (although unlike us, they have prospects at the position), and instead of paying baez they bided their time and ended up with a much better player on a much more palatable deal. Al got turned down by correa (we believe) and then paid baez on a long term deal. Al has a long history of not reading the market (jd martinez trade, verlander trade, failing to deal boyd) so i'm putting my eggs in the "Al misread things again" basket. I have come to believe that having to deal with the market for things like trades is the job Al likes the least. The guy is a scout, not a businessman. The trades have all the earmarks of someone procrastinating this unpleasant thing they have to do until the last minute, and then accepting the failure so they can just block out the experience and get past it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 19 minutes ago, chasfh said: Hinch has a ring. Owners and GMs respect that. It's marketable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 16, 2022 Author Share Posted June 16, 2022 Just now, Tiger337 said: It's marketable. Which is perfect for a marketplace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 3 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: But the Tigers offered Correa more money than anybody else. All the top free agent SS signed for more total money than Correa so I guess the Tigers, along with the Rangers and Red Sox misread the market as well. It seems Correa misread the market as he thought he was worth more than he was. see chas's post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 4 minutes ago, chasfh said: I agree with you, Correa would have done the same deal with the Tigers if we'd come to him with it first. Correa didn't want the guaranteed money if it was going to be only 275, or whatever it was, for basically the rest of his career. It was well-known months in advance he was expecting way into the threes, at least, and he would never have gotten that with the Tigers. The Tigers not only lowballed him—I bet the Tigers knew they were lowballing him and were hoping to either luck into a yes, or hoping he'd say no so they could be seen as making an effort without spending a penny. I honestly don't know which. The Twins deal is great for Correa because he has now established a baseline of $35 million a year. That means, if he has a good year—and he is having a good year, on his way to 6+ WAR—a team is going to have to come at him with $36MM AAV, minimum. Since he's going into his age 28 season, I think his fair minimum asking will be 10/360. And if he has an uncharacteristically healthy year, he could exceed that pretty handily. But the thing is, it's reported no other team offered him what he wanted. If the Tigers offer at at least $275 million was a lowball, then why didn't he sign a $300+ million contract? If no other team was offering more than the Tigers, it seems like they read the market just fine and all indications are no team was offering more. I would also be shocked if the Tigers offer didn't include an opt out after two years at the latest. You even mentioned uncharacteristically healthy since Correa has a bit of an injury history, the Tigers offer is a safe offer that probably still allowed him to chase a larger deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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