buddha Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 18 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: And I think Avila IS the person to build a winner. So... there's that. speaking of a complete and utter horseshit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 19 minutes ago, Stanley70 said: The Tigers HAD to have one of those shortstops and were not willing to wait the market out and get the best deal, opening up the possibility that none of them signed with Detroit. Correa didn't accept the the deal they offered, which he probably should have since no one else offered more, and wound up having to accept a lesser deal. The failure on the Tigers approach was they were basically in desperation mode and were afraid to wait the market out. You can blame that on ownership for demanding a big name signing, AA for putting a crap team on the field for 5 years and being forced into having to sign someone, or the development staff for not developing enough young talent. They signed Baez to the lowest contract of all the big time SS minus Correa. They signed him after Texas signed not only Seager but also Semien. Waiting out the market could also mean that you end up in a bidding war with the last remaining SS. The hindsight GMing going on here is something and I don't even like Avila. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: One other point for everyone whining about Avila signing Baez instead of Correa: This is not an AVILA problem. Your criticism of Avila is NOT correct because it is not an Avila problem but an... ILITCH problem. ILITCH didn't want to go to 10 years/ $350MM. ILITCH put a cap on what kind of contract/ team's annual salary he would allow. ILITCH agreed to the Baez contract, but NOT a Correa contract exceeding what Avila offered (under ILITCH's direction/ approval). The criticism of Avila is completely and totally UNWARRANTED. IMO. What? Look at the shitty drafting! That's not Illitch's fault, is it? That's how you build a team, through drafting. You don't build them through free agents anymore. The drafting is pathetic. This bum has been GM or AGM for 20 years and the everyday position players to show for his drafting are Nick Castellanos, Alex Avila, James McCann, Cameron Maybe and I'll be kind and give him Devin Travis..............THAT'S IT! 20 DAMN YEARS, THAT'S IT ! James McCann & Cameron Maybin are journeymen/role players. So that leaves Nick, who couldn't catch water if he fell out of a boat and his son. Wow, that's an incredible find, your own son. His son was the best player he ever drafted (as the AGM he was in charge of scouting and development). I like Alex Avila, but he was just a solid everyday catcher, and that's it. Plus the trades. Okay, I'll give it 25% Chris and 75% Al, and most of that 25% blame is for extending Al. Not on Avila. Where do you buy your weed, tell me the strain, I want summa that ! Edited June 16, 2022 by Motor City Sonics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 5 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: The hindsight GMing going on here is something and I don't even like Avila. yeah. having Short, Niko, or Iglesias as the starting SS could very well have been the result of not signing Baez again, Al has been really bad at multiple jobs for the Tigers for literally decades not exaggerating that his best skill seems to be Rule 5 drafting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 I am sensing a complete tonal shift from the fan base after the Chicago series. Fans went from disappointed to very angry, (apoplectic, actually). The next phase is worst of all - apathy and we're standing on the ledge of that abyss - and when that happens, you don't even get talked about anymore. Have fun with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 Can we have a "Tap Out" rule. If a team is down by 10 runs they can just call it? That would have taken more effort than that team showed yesterday. Talk about phoning it in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobrob2004 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 I still find it a bit suspicious that Correa wouldn't take a bit less money to play for his former manager again, especially after that lunch meeting that they had. Seems like Correa has a big ego. And why is everyone so confident that Correa would have the same numbers in Detroit as he does with Minnesota considering the criticisms of Scott Coolbaugh? For all we know, Correa wouldn't be hitting any better than Baez is hitting if the Tigers would have signed him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 5 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said: yeah. having Short, Niko, or Iglesias as the starting SS could very well have been the result of not signing Baez again, Al has been really bad at multiple jobs for the Tigers for literally decades not exaggerating that his best skill seems to be Rule 5 drafting You know what's so ironic about that. Those Rule 5 guys come from teams that drafted so well they couldn't keep some talented players on their own rosters..............The Bizzaro Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 I honestly feel the Tigers should have asked Dan Campbell to hold the clubhouse meeting. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 32 minutes ago, kdog said: In the grand scheme of things, the Baez contract is not the biggest issue with Avila. It's all player development before 2021(before the overhaul). They claimed that a development machine was being built to produce young players that could seamlessly come in and contribute to the major league club. But all they did was tank and try to get high draft picks. From ... Where I would disagree with this, is: Spencer Turnbull - 2014 #63 pick (2nd round). Tarik Skubal - 2018, 9th round. Greg Soto - International signing. Wilmer Flores - 2020, undrafted FA signing. Tyler Alexander - 2015, 2nd round. Will Vest, 2017, 12th round. Joe Jimenez - International sign. Beau Brieske - 2019, 27th round. Jason Foley - 2016, undrafted FA. Jake Rogers - trade. Dillon Dingler - 2020, 2nd round. Kody Clemens - 2018, 3rd round. Ryan Kreidler - 2019, 4th round. Roberto Campos - 2019 International signing. Christian Santana - 2021 International signing. Colten Keith - 2020, 5th round. Daniel Cabrera - 2020, 2nd round. Gage Workman - 2020, 4th round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 13 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said: What? Look at the shitty drafting! That's not Illitch's fault, is it? That's how you build a team, through drafting. You don't build them through free agents anymore. The drafting is pathetic. This bum has been GM or AGM for 20 years and the everyday position players to show for his drafting are Nick Castellanos, Alex Avila, James McCann, Cameron Maybe and I'll be kind and give him Devin Travis..............THAT'S IT! 20 DAMN YEARS, THAT'S IT ! James McCann & Cameron Maybin are journeymen/role players. So that leaves Nick, who couldn't catch water if he fell out of a boat and his son. Wow, that's an incredible find, your own son. His son was the best player he ever drafted (as the AGM he was in charge of scouting and development). I like Alex Avila, but he was just a solid everyday catcher, and that's it. Plus the trades. Okay, I'll give it 25% Chris and 75% Al, and most of that 25% blame is for extending Al. Not on Avila. Where do you buy your weed, tell me the strain, I want summa that ! This is a DIFFERENT conversation. The conversation at hand is whether it is AVILA's fault or not, for signing Baez instead of Correa. Are you able to stay on point, or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said: Where I would disagree with this, is: Spencer Turnbull - 2014 #63 pick (2nd round). Tarik Skubal - 2018, 9th round. Greg Soto - International signing. Wilmer Flores - 2020, undrafted FA signing. Tyler Alexander - 2015, 2nd round. Will Vest, 2017, 12th round. Joe Jimenez - International sign. Beau Brieske - 2019, 27th round. Jason Foley - 2016, undrafted FA. Jake Rogers - trade. Dillon Dingler - 2020, 2nd round. Kody Clemens - 2018, 3rd round. Ryan Kreidler - 2019, 4th round. Roberto Campos - 2019 International signing. Christian Santana - 2021 International signing. Colten Keith - 2020, 5th round. Daniel Cabrera - 2020, 2nd round. Gage Workman - 2020, 4th round. I've been talking about POSITION players, since our lineup is so horrible. Rogers, Dingler, Clemens, Kreidler, Campos, Santana, Keith, Cabrera and Workman haven't proven a damn thing. We can ALWAYS point to a list of who's coming, but they either never seem to make it or our developmental staff (Al is in charge of) seems to screw them up. I don't want to hear about the future anymore. He's had 7 years as the man in charge and 13 as the man behind the throne before that and look at what we have. Excuse me if I don't believe that any of these guys will live up to our hype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said: I understand why Correa signed the deal he signed. The point was Avila simultaneously misread the market and lowballed him while offering more money than anyone else. As you have outlined, Avila knew the market. Why should Avila bid against himself and go up over $300 million when no other team would? So we can complain that Avila way overpaid when no other team was offering him similar money? Are we supposed to pretend that Minnesota is some genius organization that knew the market would collapse for Correa and he would sign effectively a one year deal? What would be the point of signing Correa for one year anyways? I'm not even sure the contract he did sign with Minnesota would make sense for Detroit. I remember a lot of comments before the lockout that basically were assumptions that Correa was gonna get a Lindor deal this offseason, which he did not. In general, I think it's a pretty good deal for both parties involved, but the idea that people had the foresight that kinda deal could or would happen is a bit much based on my recollection of the offseason. When news of it broke, it was a shock to just about everyone, including some on this board. Forgive me for not laying that particular criticism at Al, that he didn't have the foresight to know that Minnesota would come in with an incentives laden deal to allow Correa another bite at the apple. Avila is a terrible GM and deserves to be fired, but I didn't have much of a problem with how he handled this offseason. I'm not gonna do revisionist history and complain after the fact. Edited June 16, 2022 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: This is a DIFFERENT conversation. The conversation at hand is whether it is AVILA's fault or not, for signing Baez instead of Correa. Are you able to stay on point, or not? It's not about one move. One move can be forgiven. This is misstep after misstep after misstep - right off of a ledge. If any of us were as bad at our jobs would we still have it? I doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 52 minutes ago, Stanley70 said: The Tigers HAD to have one of those shortstops and were not willing to wait the market out and get the best deal, opening up the possibility that none of them signed with Detroit. Correa didn't accept the the deal they offered, which he probably should have since no one else offered more, and wound up having to accept a lesser deal. The failure on the Tigers approach was they were basically in desperation mode and were afraid to wait the market out. You can blame that on ownership for demanding a big name signing, AA for putting a crap team on the field for 5 years and being forced into having to sign someone, or the development staff for not developing enough young talent. Yes. And could you have imagined the shit show from the fanbase had they not? That's the other thing this debate misses: I've seen comments (not necessarily here, but on SM) to the effect of that we would have been better off not signing any of them over signing Baez, but when you go back in time to that moment after the offseason, the fan base would not have tolerated no signing. The anger would be as high as it is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 1 minute ago, Motor City Sonics said: It's not about one move. One move can be forgiven. This is misstep after misstep after misstep - right off of a ledge. If any of us were as bad at our jobs would we still have it? I doubt it. If you want to change the conversation fine. But we were SPECIFICALLY talking about, and my response that you specifically quoted... Was about what fault lies in signing or not signing Correa. If you want to contribute to that conversation, fine. If you want to start a separate conversation, fine. But I'm not going to argue with you over your GENERAL dissatisfaction when you quoted my SPECIFIC statement that it is ILITCH's fault for not signing Correa, NOT Avila's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 By the way, Tears For Fears show at Pine Knob. I know someone here decided to bail because of the heat, but they were fantastic last night. Great show. Roland's voice is as good as ever. Good crowd there too. Pavilion and lawn were probably at least 85% full and the crowd was loving the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 56 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: And I think Avila IS the person to build a winner. So... there's that. One vote for Avila. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 36 minutes ago, buddha said: speaking of a complete and utter horseshit... We'll see. Im guessing that Ilitch does NOT fire Avila. Not this year, not after this season, and not for the next couple of years. Maybe he gets kicked upstairs, but I'm just guessing here... he won't get fired. That means in a couple of years, we'll be able to see who is horseshit. The Tigers will either be in the dumps, under Avila, or in the playoffs, under Avila. So if I'm correct that Avila isn't getting fired... then... We'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 4 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: One vote for Avila. I might be the only one. But I'm sticking to my guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 3 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: I might be the only one. But I'm sticking to my guns. Nothing wrong with that. I don't think he's a good GM, but when I look back at the Randy Smith, it's hard to view Avila as epically bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 My problem with Avila is it goes back to the Dombrowski days. The Tigers never really developed their own talent but Dombrowski had the incredible ability of trading flotsam for good players like Guillen, Polanco, Fister, and knowing when to bail on top prospects for veterans like with Cabrera and Sanchez. Avila hasn't even shown that ability. Rebuilds are long and tedious. Houston went through a stretch where they lost 100+ games three straight years plus a 92 loss season. The difference is they came out loaded on the other end and it seems the Tigers are clinging to three players. One who just had Tommy John and another struggling mightily. I'm ready to move on. We should hire that Houston guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: I honestly feel the Tigers should have asked Dan Campbell to hold the clubhouse meeting. I am sure he would say there are alot of turds floating in this bowl. Edited June 16, 2022 by Tigeraholic1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 Just now, Tigeraholic1 said: I am sure he would say there are alot of turds floating in this bowl. I would be afraid a Tiger pitcher would go out the next day and drill an opposing hitter in the knee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 16, 2022 Author Share Posted June 16, 2022 2 hours ago, Motown Bombers said: I understand why Correa signed the deal he signed. The point was Avila simultaneously misread the market and lowballed him while offering more money than anyone else. As you have outlined, Avila knew the market. Why should Avila bid against himself and go up over $300 million when no other team would? So we can complain that Avila way overpaid when no other team was offering him similar money? Are we supposed to pretend that Minnesota is some genius organization that knew the market would collapse for Correa and he would sign effectively a one year deal? What would be the point of signing Correa for one year anyways? I'm not even sure the contract he did sign with Minnesota would make sense for Detroit. My question would be, why was Avila bidding at all, when it was well understood that Correa was never going to take an offer 65 million below his asking price, and in November to boot? What was he trying to accomplish? If Avila was trying to accomplish a signing of Correa, then you’re right, he completely misunderstands the free agent market. Because who among those who know what they’re doing would honestly believe that lowballing the top guy on the market by 20% months before a soft signing deadline would get that job done? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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