2022 DETROIT TIGERS REGULAR SEASON THREAD

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, bobrob2004 said:

Tell that to Joe Girardi and Joe Maddon.  

And they both got hired by other teams after winning that ring. Because owners and GMs respect rings. That’s what I meant to say.

[Motown Bombers]

Just now, chasfh said:

My question would be, why was Avila bidding at all, when it was well understood that Correa was never going to take an offer 65 million below his asking price, and in November to boot? What was he trying to accomplish?

If Avila was trying to accomplish a signing of Correa, then you’re right, he completely misunderstands the free agent market. Because who among those who know what they’re doing would honestly believe that lowballing the top guy on the market by 20% months before a soft signing deadline would get that job done?

You keep saying lowballing when the Tigers offered him more money than anyone else. That's not lowballing. What Avila was thinking, or more appropriately Illitch, is that if no other team was willing to pay more, why should the Tigers? It's well understood that Correa was never going to take an offer $65 million below his asking price but yet accepted one $235 million below his asking price and $170 million below what the Tigers offered but somehow the Tigers lowballed him. This is insanity. 

[Motor City Sonics]

I was disappointed, but only mildly over the Baez instead of Correa, but I expected Baez to be better than this.   Baez has been on generally good teams with good lineups.   Maybe when he's got quality around him, it probably helps his game.  But nobody expected this and I won't bag on Avila too much on this move.   It's just the weight of all the moves.   The free agents have mostly been a disaster, the trades have been bad, but for me it's the drafting.  There's no excuse for that, because outside of money for certain first round guys, there is no excuse to pass over talent like they do routinely.   And honestly, the potential weight of a first-round contract hasn't been a hindrance, they've been willing to pay up recently.   

The question seems to be are they that bad at drafting or that bad at development and my fear is that they are that bad at both.   That's why a total purge is needed.  I mean total.  Nobody in player personnel, scouting or coaching in this organization deserves to keep their job.   (Okay, maybe Chris Fetter, but I have a feeling he'll be managing a team in a year or two, he may even replace A.J. when he leaves).  

[Tigeraholic1]

Hey we got some league leaders fellas

 

 

 

[Motor City Sonics]

1 minute ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I was disappointed, but only mildly over the Baez instead of Correa, but I expected Baez to be better than this.   Baez has been on generally good teams with good lineups.   Maybe when he's got quality around him, it probably helps his game.  But nobody expected this and I won't bag on Avila too much on this move.   It's just the weight of all the moves.   The free agents have mostly been a disaster, the trades have been bad, but for me it's the drafting.  There's no excuse for that, because outside of money for certain first round guys, there is no excuse to pass over talent like they do routinely.   And honestly, the potential weight of a first-round contract hasn't been a hindrance, they've been willing to pay up recently.   

The question seems to be are they that bad at drafting or that bad at development and my fear is that they are that bad at both.   That's why a total purge is needed.  I mean total.  Nobody in player personnel, scouting or coaching in this organization deserves to keep their job.   (Okay, maybe Chris Fetter, but I have a feeling he'll be managing a team in a year or two, he may even replace A.J. when he leaves).  

It's like when Mllen was let go.  Now, he was let go after the 3rd game in 2008, so of course someone from the staff already there was going to take over, but they all should have been fired the day after the season ended.   I think that the only thing that probably saved them is they all documented the times they told Millen he was making a mistake.   I don't get the sense the Tigers are in that situation.  David Chadd and Dave Littleton have been here for years.  It's time to move on.  

[Motor City Sonics]

1 minute ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Hey we got some league leaders fellas

 

 

 

AJ loves his loyalty, but with the temperature rising from the fans, I think Scott Coolbaugh is going to be out of a job very soon.   Someone will have to be sacrificed.  I just don't know that Mike Hessman is going to be any better. 

[buddha]

12 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

You keep saying lowballing when the Tigers offered him more money than anyone else. That's not lowballing. What Avila was thinking, or more appropriately Illitch, is that if no other team was willing to pay more, why should the Tigers? It's well understood that Correa was never going to take an offer $65 million below his asking price but yet accepted one $235 million below his asking price and $170 million below what the Tigers offered but somehow the Tigers lowballed him. This is insanity. 

because one offer locks him in at that low price for a decade and the other lets him go back and get a bigger price next year.

[chasfh]

12 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

You keep saying lowballing when the Tigers offered him more money than anyone else. That's not lowballing. What Avila was thinking, or more appropriately Illitch, is that if no other team was willing to pay more, why should the Tigers? It's well understood that Correa was never going to take an offer $65 million below his asking price but yet accepted one $235 million below his asking price and $170 million below what the Tigers offered but somehow the Tigers lowballed him. This is insanity. 

It was lowballing because it was way lower than his publicly stated number, and he did not take it because he was being lowballed.

Also, there’s a difference between apples and oranges. 

[Motown Bombers]

Just now, buddha said:

because one offer locks him in at that low price for a decade and the other lets him go back and get a bigger price next year.

I guarantee the Tigers offer had an opt out and he wasn't locked in for 10 years. Players these days don't sign big contracts like that without an opt out. I mean, the Tigers gave Baez an opt out. I'm sure that was available to Correa. Even putting the opt out aside, one contract guarantees him $170 million more no matter what. The other comes with some risk. It's reasonable that if you are going to make a long term commitment, you get a discount on AAV. 

[kdog]

1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said:

Where I would disagree with this, is:

Spencer Turnbull - 2014 #63 pick (2nd round).

Tarik Skubal - 2018, 9th round.

Greg Soto - International signing.

Wilmer Flores - 2020, undrafted FA signing.

Tyler Alexander - 2015, 2nd round.

Will Vest, 2017, 12th round.

Joe Jimenez - International sign.

Beau Brieske - 2019, 27th round.

Jason Foley - 2016, undrafted FA.

Jake Rogers - trade.

Dillon Dingler - 2020, 2nd round.

Kody Clemens - 2018, 3rd round.

Ryan Kreidler - 2019, 4th round.

Roberto Campos - 2019 International signing.

Christian Santana - 2021 International signing.

Colten Keith - 2020, 5th round.

Daniel Cabrera - 2020, 2nd round.

Gage Workman - 2020, 4th round.

Is there an above average position player anywhere on this list? It's too early for the international kids. I'm not sure any of the guys at W Michigan or above projects to be above average.

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

It was lowballing because it was way lower than his publicly stated number, and he did not take it because he was being lowballed.

Also, there’s a difference between apples and oranges. 

There's a difference between what you are worth and what you want. My house has a market value of $250,000. I want to sell it for $600,000 but if the most someone is going to offer me is $250,000, it doesn't mean I was lowballed. It means I misread the market and had an overinflated sense of what my house was worth. Meanwhile, while I was demanding more for my house than every other house in the neighborhood, people started buying up the houses in my neighborhood and mine remained stagnant. Now there are fewer buyers left for my house so I decide to rent it out for a year and hope next year the market will be better. 

[1984Echoes]

26 minutes ago, chasfh said:

My question would be, why was Avila bidding at all, when it was well understood that Correa was never going to take an offer 65 million below his asking price, and in November to boot? What was he trying to accomplish?

If Avila was trying to accomplish a signing of Correa, then you’re right, he completely misunderstands the free agent market. Because who among those who know what they’re doing would honestly believe that lowballing the top guy on the market by 20% months before a soft signing deadline would get that job done?

I don't fault Hinch/ Ilitch/ Avila for taking a shot. Even if it's a 2% shot. I mean, seriously, do you?

They're not even allowed to take that shot?

I don't know what their selling point was (Hinch: "Hey Carlos, it's ME!" ???), but it didn't work.

OK, whatever, move on to the next guy.

But to criticize them for trying to take a shot at the best SS on the market, even given Ilitch's financial constraints...

Why?

[Motown Bombers]

Just now, 1984Echoes said:

I don't fault Hinch/ Ilitch/ Avila for taking a shot. Even if it's a 2% shot. I mean, seriously, do you?

They're not even allowed to take that shot?

I don't know what their selling point was (Hinch: "Hey Carlos, it's ME!" ???), but it didn't work.

OK, whatever, move on to the next guy.

But to criticize them for trying to take a shot at the best SS on the market, even given Ilitch's financial constraints...

Why?

What is so bizarre to me is Avila is being criticized for taking a shot at Correa by offering him more guaranteed money than any other team and yet it was lowballing because Correa wanted more even though no team was willing to pay it. 

[buddha]

1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said:

I don't fault Hinch/ Ilitch/ Avila for taking a shot. Even if it's a 2% shot. I mean, seriously, do you?

They're not even allowed to take that shot?

I don't know what their selling point was (Hinch: "Hey Carlos, it's ME!" ???), but it didn't work.

OK, whatever, move on to the next guy.

But to criticize them for trying to take a shot at the best SS on the market, even given Ilitch's financial constraints...

Why?

they failed to get him.  he was the best player available and they failed to make him an offer he would accept and/or simply failed to sign him.

instead they signed javy baez, who has been terrible.

why do you consider this an example of avila doing a good job?  

[Motown Bombers]

Just now, buddha said:

they failed to get him.  he was the best player available and they failed to make him an offer he would accept and/or simply failed to sign him.

instead they signed javy baez, who has been terrible.

why do you consider this an example of avila doing a good job?  

Guaranteed when it came out that Avila paid $65+ million more than any other team was willing to pay you would be the first to criticize that decision. Ironically, the complaint would be that Avila misread the market because he vastly overpaid. 

[1984Echoes]

5 minutes ago, kdog said:

Is there an above average position player anywhere on this list? It's too early for the international kids. I'm not sure any of the guys at W Michigan or above projects to be above average.

It's too early for all of those guys.

But I like all of them. Doesn't mean any/ all will make it in MLB... but in my mind, that means...

Patience.

I like the pitchers they're drafting and trading for and developing (I like Jobe, but wish they would have drafted Mayer...)

I like the position players that Avila is drafting now that DD is no longer demanding that fast-moving college players (so he could trade them) be solely and primarily drafted... 

And we haven't even gotten to Tork and Greene, who I both like.

Besides, wasn't your complaint that we are getting nothing outside of our 1st rounders? Because that's not correct.

And if you are ONLY talking about position players drafted outside of the 1st... Again, in my mind, that means patience.

However terrible/ horrible/ hateful/ hated that word is...

[Motor City Sonics]

3 minutes ago, buddha said:

they failed to get him.  he was the best player available and they failed to make him an offer he would accept and/or simply failed to sign him.

instead they signed javy baez, who has been terrible.

why do you consider this an example of avila doing a good job?  

its all about results.  its a results-based business.  I'll forgive him 2015-2019, 4 years is a reasonable time to expect things to really start to turn around.    the unicorn seasons from Haase, Baddoo and Grossman may actually have been tied to a juiced baseball, which is gone now.    

Another damning fact is that the Blue Jays, who are serious World Series contenders in an extremely tough division,  have built their entire contending team in a shorter span than Al's been the GM here, and they lost a Cy Young winner this past off season.   

Edited June 16, 2022 by Motor City Sonics

[1984Echoes]

2 minutes ago, buddha said:

they failed to get him.  he was the best player available and they failed to make him an offer he would accept and/or simply failed to sign him.

instead they signed javy baez, who has been terrible.

why do you consider this an example of avila doing a good job?  

Because it was ILITCH's decision to limit Avila's offer to the $295MM.

In other words, Avila's hands were tied. But he had the balls to make the offer anyways.

And once it was turned down, he got the least expensive of the big 6 players who (normally) is much more productive than he has been so far.

Be honest: Did you criticize Baez after we signed him? Did you criticize Avila, at that time, when Correa turned us down and then turned to Avila?

Because if you didn't, or if you even praised the Baez signing at that time, and you are only now turning on him after 20/20 hindsight... that would be... hypocrisy? I'm just asking. I don't remember what your position was.

[buddha]

1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said:

Guaranteed when it came out that Avila paid $65+ million more than any other team was willing to pay you would be the first to criticize that decision. Ironically, the complaint would be that Avila misread the market because he vastly overpaid. 

i would say avila did a great job of getting the best ss on the market.  

baez was an ok consolation prize, i guess, but he's the inferior player and he's older.  on the plus side, he didnt cost as much, but i dont really care about that.

i guarantee one thing: whatever i would have said, you would argue against it for the next ten pages of posts.

so go ahead: your move.

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, buddha said:

i would say avila did a great job of getting the best ss on the market.  

baez was an ok consolation prize, i guess, but he's the inferior player and he's older.  on the plus side, he didnt cost as much, but i dont really care about that.

i guarantee one thing: whatever i would have said, you would argue against it for the next ten pages of posts.

so go ahead: your move.

You're free to add me to your ignore list since you like to bitch about my posting so go ahead. Your move. 

[buddha]

1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said:

Because it was ILITCH's decision to limit Avila's offer to the $295MM.

In other words, Avila's hands were tied. But he had the balls to make the offer anyways.

And once it was turned down, he got the least expensive of the big 6 players who (normally) is much more productive than he has been so far.

Be honest: Did you criticize Baez after we signed him? Did you criticize Avila, at that time, when Correa turned us down and then turned to Avila?

Because if you didn't, or if you even praised the Baez signing at that time, and you are only now turning on him after 20/20 hindsight... that would be... hypocrisy? I'm just asking. I don't remember what your position was.

you dont know what illitch said about the contract money.  neither do i.

i said baez was an ok signing but i wanted correa (or seager) because he's a much better player.  beaz would - at the very least - help with their team defense.  i did not expect baez to be this bad (although i did expect him to be 220/290/440ish). i think baez will get better at some point.  i dont like the idea of paying baez for his decline years but understand that's what is necessary to sign a player.

 

[1984Echoes]

4 minutes ago, buddha said:

you dont know what illitch said about the contract money.  neither do i.

i said baez was an ok signing but i wanted correa (or seager) because he's a much better player.  beaz would - at the very least - help with their team defense.  i did not expect baez to be this bad (although i did expect him to be 220/290/440ish). i think baez will get better at some point.  i dont like the idea of paying baez for his decline years but understand that's what is necessary to sign a player.

 

I also wanted Correa because he was the best player, and I also didn't care about the $$$.

But the bolded part? Are you kidding me? NO contract gets offered without Ilitch's approval. Especially the MONEY. So yeah... I DO KNOW that Ilitch CAPPED Correa's offer. 

And you know that's true also...

Edited June 16, 2022 by 1984Echoes

[buddha]

1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said:

I also wanted Correa because he was the best player, and I also didn't care about the $$$.

But the bolded part? Are you kidding me? NO contract gets offered without Ilitch's approval. Especially the MONEY. So yeah... I DO KNOW that Ilitch CAPPED Correa's offer. 

And you know that's true also...

what bolded part?

you dont know what illitch told him he could offer.  we know he wanted to be the highest paid ss in baseball.  the twins made that happen and the tigers didnt.  that's what we actually know.

[buddha]

watch, next year javy will have a career year and correa will get hurt and we'll all be saying Al is a genius.  lol.

[Motown Bombers]

11 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Because it was ILITCH's decision to limit Avila's offer to the $295MM.

In other words, Avila's hands were tied. But he had the balls to make the offer anyways.

And once it was turned down, he got the least expensive of the big 6 players who (normally) is much more productive than he has been so far.

Be honest: Did you criticize Baez after we signed him? Did you criticize Avila, at that time, when Correa turned us down and then turned to Avila?

Because if you didn't, or if you even praised the Baez signing at that time, and you are only now turning on him after 20/20 hindsight... that would be... hypocrisy? I'm just asking. I don't remember what your position was.

He thought it was a good deal and thought Baez would get a lot more. In fact, he thought Baez would get over $200 million from Detroit. Now he's complaining that the Tigers are locked in for 6 years and didn't get Correa for $105 million even though he thought he would get $350 million. He's a pretty good hindsight GM.