2022 DETROIT TIGERS REGULAR SEASON THREAD

[chasfh]

26 minutes ago, oblong said:

honest Q... do teams draft 1B?  Or do they just develop into one?

 

We didn't. We drafted a "third baseman".

[Cruzer1]

I think the biggest issues with the Tigers is that they get burned every time they jump into free agency to fix their problems. I think free agency has been bad in baseball recently, with many teams losing big.

[sabretooth]

3 minutes ago, Cruzer1 said:

I think the biggest issues with the Tigers is that they get burned every time they jump into free agency to fix their problems. I think free agency has been bad in baseball recently, with many teams losing big.

They also get burned every time they jump into the drafting and developing of players to fix their problems. 

They also get burned every time they jump into the trading of players to fix their problems. 

I think their problem may be with the people who are doing the jumping into things, not the things that they are jumping into.

[mtutiger]

9 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

They also get burned every time they jump into the drafting and developing of players to fix their problems. 

They also get burned every time they jump into the trading of players to fix their problems. 

I think their problem may be with the people who are doing the jumping into things, not the things that they are jumping into.

As much as some of the free agents have underperformed (ie. Baez) or have been MIA (ie. ERod, Pineda), the 2021-22 free agency period isn't why this team finds itself at this juncture. The factors you mentioned (drafting/developing, trading) are much larger factors.

[HeyAbbott]

17 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

They also get burned every time they jump into the drafting and developing of players to fix their problems. 

They also get burned every time they jump into the trading of players to fix their problems. 

I think their problem may be with the people who are doing the jumping into things, not the things that they are jumping into.

This above quote sums up where I am at.

It has been a very long time since they have shown the ability to develop players. Since the evidence is overwhelming they cannot develop a position player, and they cannot identify good trade or free agent fits, I anticipate that we are are 7 years away from anything resembling a playoff team.

 

[sabretooth]

11 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

As much as some of the free agents have underperformed (ie. Baez) or have been MIA (ie. ERod, Pineda), the 2021-22 free agency period isn't why this team finds itself at this juncture. The factors you mentioned (drafting/developing, trading) are much larger factors.

Yeah, I was being a little sarcastic.....to blame things right now on FAs is so myopic. 

At some point there has to be a consensus realization that Avila is a shitty GM....he sucked when he first had a big payroll, he sucked trying to tear it down and firesale the veterans, he sucked trying to rebuild, he sucked at bringing in the right developmental platform and personnel before last year, he sucked at drafting, he sucked at development.

He's made a couple of decent to good trades here and there, and a couple of good FA signings here and there, and he hired AJ, which I think has been a plus, but overall, it's so painfully obvious that Avila sucks that I cannot believe when I see a myopic focus on a certain aspect of failure separate from Avila's ultimate responsibility.

Now, that having been said, Avila sucking means that Chris I ALSO sucks, since he kept Avila around year after year when it was also obvious from the get-go that Avila couldn't do ***anything*** at an above average level.....every year that ticked by saw increasing evidence that Avila was in waaayyyy over his head from the minute he was hired as GM in 2015 by Mike I.

Chris took his sorry GM and gave him ZERO resources, probably because Avila understood and confirmed Chris's bias/desire to build the team as if it was the Roaring '20s (1920s), and to spend/risk zero dollars on anybody.

Avila can't do anything about the fact that he's a sorry GM.

But Chris can always change his mind, hire the right GM, and give him the proper resources and hold him accountable for results.  To the extent that Chris continues to refuse to do any of these things, HE is the fly in the ointment with this team.

Firing Avila is an obvious move, which is overdue by at least 5 years, but firing Avila won't mean a thing if Chris I doesn't shape up his approach to hiring, spending, and so on.

And for those who are going to respond negatively to this, I am NOT demanding/supporting/asking for a big payroll....as I've said thousands of times over the last 5+ years, I just want to see an average payroll as a floor.  They are kinda there, but I'll believe that they are committed to an average payroll after Miggy's contract rolls off and they reinvest that $$ in other talent.

[bobrob2004]

1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said:

All this talk about "we might lose AJ".    That doesn't bother me like it would have 3 months ago.   Sorry, I think he's checked out too............

He constantly makes bad in-game decisions but no one points them out.  Last night they are winning 1-0 in the 9th and he just leaves Soto in there imploding.  You consciously used 3 position players to pitch in yesterday's game to keep the bullpen fresh only for you to not utilize the bullpen when one of your relievers doesn't have it.  He claims he doesn't use old-fashioned roles for his bullpen, but when it comes to actually managing the bullpen, he makes the same do-or-die by the closer mistake as every other manager.  

Sure the offense was horrible like every other game.  But that was a winnable game and Hinch blew it.  

Edited June 17, 2022 by bobrob2004

[sabretooth]

14 minutes ago, HeyAbbott said:

This above quote sums up where I am at.

It has been a very long time since they have shown the ability to develop players. Since the evidence is overwhelming they cannot develop a position player, and they cannot identify good trade or free agent fits, I anticipate that we are are 7 years away from anything resembling a playoff team.

Even without the good D/D we can still get there if we commit to doing the right things now.  They are not really "stuck" anywhere with long-term committments or overhang.  They can turn on a dime.

They can't count on future draft picks to help in the short-term, but they still have a lot of resources to put on the table, especially when Miggy, Grossman, and other contracts roll-off in the near future.

If they are going to pick up Miggy's option, that had better be for pure PR and not count against the team's performance needs, which are very significant.

Also, it should be obvious that their entire lineup isn't going to continue to have 50-60 OPS+ for the balance of the season!  Their skill level HAS to come through at some point.  They are not this bad. 

[chasfh]

Looks like people in this forum are increasingly hopping aboard the First A.J. Hinch and the Horse He Rode In On train. I'm definitely not there yet, but I won't argue against it, because it's so hard to defend the historically-bad results so far.

But I will say this: if this organization fires Hinch and all his coaches while keeping Al Avila, especially as the season is still in progress, that will be the final confirmation that this organization has no plan; that they never had a serious plan in place; and frankly, don't care enough about putting a consistent winning product on the field to put a well-thought-out plan in place and see it through. At that point, it would be obvious that they appear to care about winning only to the degree that they can do the bare minimum they can get away with to have some winning drop into their lap.

That's what I would take away from a midseason firing of A.J. Hinch and coach(es) TBD.

Speaking only for myself, if/once that happens, I would be hard-pressed to care about the direction of the Detroit Tigers organization anymore. I would still care enough to root for them in individual games I see, as I do with the Lions, Pistons or Red Wings, because of the city on the uni. But I will have no remaining faith that they'll ever be able to figure out how to get us back to contending for the playoffs consistently, except to luck into it by throwing a little money at it, a la the Papa Doc days. The only thing that's missing from that era is the one guy at the top who knows what he's doing who can make that happen.

Edited June 17, 2022 by chasfh

[mtutiger]

15 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

He constantly makes bad in-game decisions but no one points them out. 

Some of us do, but then are accused of blaming Hinch for all of this teams problems.

I like AJ Hinch, even with all of their problems, but a portion of this fanbase treats him like a God who is above questioning. 

15 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

You consciously used 3 position players to pitch in yesterday's game to keep the bullpen fresh only for you to not utilize the bullpen when one of your relievers doesn't have it.  He claims he doesn't use old-fashioned roles for his bullpen, but when it comes to actually managing the bullpen, he makes the same do-or-die by the closer mistake as every other manager.  

In light of the often-heard comment that is applied to him with doubleheaders (ie. sell out to win the first game, worry about the second game later), the decision last night to wait to get Chafin up until the bases were loaded looks pretty bad.

It's easy to second guess, but he had a similar situation arise against Baltimore earlier in the year and had Will Vest up, so it's not as if it's unprecedented.

Edited June 17, 2022 by mtutiger

[Stanley70]

I was skeptical that having a bunch of guys who have been in baseball for 30 plus years leading us into a rebuild and twenty first century baseball was not a good idea to begin with. I thought we needed some younger minds more open to the new technologies, sabermetrics and training methods that frankly the Tigers have fallen well behind the most of the league at.  Drafting and development have been awful for decades so it didn't inspire confidence that they were the front office to turn things around. Also while I don't have numbers i believe the Tigers scouting staff is much smaller than the rest league and that is a large part of the problem as well. That probably goes back to Monahan.

When Hinch was hired i thought that he would at least bring a fresh modern perspective, but not many results so far. To be fair it does take time for what new methods they may have introduced to bare fruit. They do have more interesting positional prospects than in years past so maybe we will start seeing some successes.

[oblong]

Like the Ilitchs and the Fox Theater, Avila and Chadd and Co are living off Miguel Cabrera and JD Martinez.

This team can't even develop slightly below average players.  Some people think they can get a pass because they think that was the result of FA signings, a strategic trade off.  No.  It's not one or the other.  They didn't sacrifice development so that they could sign guys like Victor and Fielder and any other guy you mention.  Teams are not built on first round picks.  I've said this a million times but I believe you can create decent ballplayers.  The skill isn't finding good players.  It's finding the right players you can make into good players via coaching and other tools.    Other orgs can do it.  it takes a special effort to be this bad in baseball for this long.

I have tickets tonight.  it's going to be a Friday night.  Beautiful weather.  The kind of nights you dream of as a baseball fan.  I'm not going.  My regular partner has an obligation and I really don't feel like asking anyone else, my family is busy.... and I went Wednesday by myself.   If anyone wants them let me know, they're yours.

 

 

 

[Motor City Sonics]

6 minutes ago, oblong said:

Like the Ilitchs and the Fox Theater, Avila and Chadd and Co are living off Miguel Cabrera and JD Martinez.

This team can't even develop slightly below average players.  Some people think they can get a pass because they think that was the result of FA signings, a strategic trade off.  No.  It's not one or the other.  They didn't sacrifice development so that they could sign guys like Victor and Fielder and any other guy you mention.  Teams are not built on first round picks.  I've said this a million times but I believe you can create decent ballplayers.  The skill isn't finding good players.  It's finding the right players you can make into good players via coaching and other tools.    Other orgs can do it.  it takes a special effort to be this bad in baseball for this long.

I have tickets tonight.  it's going to be a Friday night.  Beautiful weather.  The kind of nights you dream of as a baseball fan.  I'm not going.  My regular partner has an obligation and I really don't feel like asking anyone else, my family is busy.... and I went Wednesday by myself.   If anyone wants them let me know, they're yours.

 

 

 

I would normally take you up on the offer, but I need to stick to my guns............I can't support what's happening in any way, not by contributing to parking or concessions or anything.  We have to stop supporting this.  We have to make it clear that this won't work.   I don't know if that matters, because Chris probably makes a profit off the TV deal alone, but I just can't do it.  Haven't gone to a Lions game since the 0-16 season, my life has been fine. 

[sabretooth]

53 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Looks like people in this forum are increasingly hopping aboard the First A.J. Hinch and the Horse He Rode In On train. I'm definitely not there yet, but I won't argue against it, because it's so hard to defend the historically-bad results so far.

But I will say this: if this organization fires Hinch and all his coaches while keeping Al Avila, especially as the season is still in progress, that will be the final confirmation that this organization has no plan; that they never had a serious plan in place; and frankly, don't care enough about putting a consistent winning product on the field to put a well-thought-out plan in place and see it through. At that point, it would be obvious that they appear to care about winning only to the degree that they can do the bare minimum they can get away with to have some winning drop into their lap.

That's what I would take away from a midseason firing of A.J. Hinch and coach(es) TBD.

Speaking only for myself, if/once that happens, I would be hard-pressed to care about the direction of the Detroit Tigers organization anymore. I would still care enough to root for them in individual games I see, as I do with the Lions, Pistons or Red Wings, because of the city on the uni. But I will have no remaining faith that they'll ever be able to figure out how to get us back to contending for the playoffs consistently, except to luck into it by throwing a little money at it, a la the Papa Doc days. The only thing that's missing from that era is the one guy at the top who knows what he's doing who can make that happen.

Yeah, it would be unbelievably stupid for them to fire AJ and leave AA in place.  AJ is the only person in this organization that has brought a modicum of success.  Their problems this year are with towering injuries and an inexplicable inability for anybody to hit the ball.  Both of those might reflect on AJ, or not. 

Regardless of whether AJ should be held accountable for the mess this year so far, the major problem with this team is a lack of talent beyond those that they have either spent huge losses on (tank picks like Manning, Mize, Tork, Greene, Jobe), FA contracts on, or trades....while that might work with superior FA signings and trades, with Avila, the FAs and trades AND tank picks are just not good enough to carry the total lack of D/D. 

[sabretooth]

I would also add that less than one week ago, they were in pretty good shape, having won 14 out of 25 games.

The Chicago series was a total disaster, a shock to the system, everything failed dramaticallly.

The loss last night is a dick-punch.

But if their hitters hit the way they have in the past 3 years, they will be a lot closer to what we thought they would be in 2022.  Get Pineda and Eduardo back and pitching well, and maybe we're a decent team, or even a good team.

I can't argue with the disappointment vs. what we hoped for, but if people are angry about this season so far and weren't expressing anger before about 2017 - 2020, then I don't want to hear it.

[HeyAbbott]

1 hour ago, sabretooth said:

Even without the good D/D we can still get there if we commit to doing the right things now.  They are not really "stuck" anywhere with long-term committments or overhang.  They can turn on a dime.

They can't count on future draft picks to help in the short-term, but they still have a lot of resources to put on the table, especially when Miggy, Grossman, and other contracts roll-off in the near future.

If they are going to pick up Miggy's option, that had better be for pure PR and not count against the team's performance needs, which are very significant.

Also, it should be obvious that their entire lineup isn't going to continue to have 50-60 OPS+ for the balance of the season!  Their skill level HAS to come through at some point.  They are not this bad. 

The problem with this organization's prospects of improving on field performance does not lie with lack of available resources, rather with its inability to assess and develop talent. Until there is evidence that it can do those 2 things well, performance will not improve. There needs to be personnel moves to drive home to the organization as a whole that there are penalties for failure.

The situation reminds me of when Washington experienced mutiny. He couldn't shoot them all, he shot a small group in front of the whole army to quash the mutiny , While this team is not experiencing a mutiny, it does need a major shot across the bow.

[SoCalTiger]

Our buddy Lynn Henning calling for Al Avilia being fired in today’s paper is hopefully the beginning of the media onslaught. 

[Motor City Sonics]

2 hours ago, bobrob2004 said:

He constantly makes bad in-game decisions but no one points them out.  Last night they are winning 1-0 in the 9th and he just leaves Soto in there imploding.  You consciously used 3 position players to pitch in yesterday's game to keep the bullpen fresh only for you to not utilize the bullpen when one of your relievers doesn't have it.  He claims he doesn't use old-fashioned roles for his bullpen, but when it comes to actually managing the bullpen, he makes the same do-or-die by the closer mistake as every other manager.  

Sure the offense was horrible like every other game.  But that was a winnable game and Hinch blew it.  

Yep.   I know Soto is your closer, but when he ain't got it...........SAVE THE GAME 

 

Could have used Vest, Lang, Foley, Joe..............could have TRIED.  

[mtutiger]

20 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

Our buddy Lynn Henning calling for Al Avilia being fired in today’s paper is hopefully the beginning of the media onslaught. 

If it's the article I'm thinking of, he basically said it without saying it lol

[1776]

26 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

Our buddy Lynn Henning calling for Al Avilia being fired in today’s paper is hopefully the beginning of the media onslaught. 

👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

[Motor City Sonics]

27 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

Our buddy Lynn Henning calling for Al Avilia being fired in today’s paper is hopefully the beginning of the media onslaught. 

Yeah, but was it for putting Riley Greene in Toledo too soon? 

[Dtrain72]

2 hours ago, sabretooth said:

Yeah, it would be unbelievably stupid for them to fire AJ and leave AA in place.  AJ is the only person in this organization that has brought a modicum of success.  Their problems this year are with towering injuries and an inexplicable inability for anybody to hit the ball.  Both of those might reflect on AJ, or not. 

Regardless of whether AJ should be held accountable for the mess this year so far, the major problem with this team is a lack of talent beyond those that they have either spent huge losses on (tank picks like Manning, Mize, Tork, Greene, Jobe), FA contracts on, or trades....while that might work with superior FA signings and trades, with Avila, the FAs and trades AND tank picks are just not good enough to carry the total lack of D/D. 

They aren't going to fire AJ, but I guarantee if AL remains the GM for much longer/after the season, we wont have to worry about AJ getting fired; he'll be outta here on his own volition the day after the season ends.

[Jim Cowan]

Well, there it is again, the friendly disagreement about Hinch's market value, in which some people think he could actually get another job if he were to quit this one.

[mtutiger]

lol!

[RandyMarsh]

This may be extreme but with the Tigers inability to hit balls more than 300ft(the rare times they do they hit it to death valley) and the fact that the team isn't loaded with burners I think if a team brings in a position player and just lobs up 40-50mph pitches I think they could potentially throw a quality start against the Tigers if they have a decent enough defense behind them.

Right now it basically takes 3 hits for them to score a run so even if they hit lasers the odds are that you're not going to continue to find a hole. You may string a few together a couple times to score 2 or 3 runs but there will be enough at'em balls to get the pitcher through the game with not too much damage.