Coronavirus: Already In a Neighborhood Near You

[pfife]

1 hour ago, Biff Mayhem said:

Probably because the rigidity of those who were vehemently fighting the idea of it originating in a lab being in positions of power setting up another layer of lies that many people swallowed hook, line and sinker.

Masks work! 

Don't buy paint or vegetable seeds!

Herd immunity is a joke!

Ivermectin is horse paste!

The vaccination will stop Covid in it's tracks!

It didn't start in a lab!

We did not authorize or pay for gain of function research!

Are you doing what you called out, just in the other direction politically?   This sounds like "dudes who were right about it being a lab leak also said all of this true stuff".

[oblong]

21 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

I contend you're either trying to continue the mockery as you refuse to believe you may have been wrong this entire time or you simply don't understand what believing something with low confidence means.  They could have come out and said they don't know, they could have said low/medium/high confidence that it was natural.  They claim they have intelligence which pushed them towards declaring it was likely a lab leak.  Rather there is some other counter evidence they don't believe strongly enough but warrants not claiming medium/high or simply don't have enough evidence, again, they are leaning towards lab leak.

Not long ago merely suggesting this put you on the same level as people that believed in Jewish space lasers.

To note folks, you can still believe the Orange man is very bad AND that this virus came out of a lab that just happens to investigate/research the exact thing we're dealing with.

I'm not going to give a lab leak theory credibility based on what the likes of crazy people say.  That's what you are missing in all of this.  The motives.  They didn't care about the why.  They only cared about the who.  These people were throwing shit at the wall and had no basis to make their claims.  I have no skin in this game.  I will not "win" or "lose" based on what eventually happened if we'll ever know because the idiots will still be the idiots even if they guessed right on this one.  You can be correct for the wrong reasons when the outcome is one of two things.   If an old wives tale says that you are more likely to have a boy if you have sex in a certain position.... well there's a 50% chance that happens.  Doesn't mean it's because of what she said.  I'll still think the person is crazy for thinking that.

[ewsieg]

24 minutes ago, oblong said:

I'm not going to give a lab leak theory credibility based on what the likes of crazy people say.  That's what you are missing in all of this.  The motives.  

Sometimes a story just stinks, think Jussie Smollet.  One of the few labs that specialize in Covid research AND has access to bats in a region 1000 miles away where we believe this originated from is where this pandemic starts.  But quickly folks with motives (research community) claims it must be the wet market, which even at the time it was not believed they sold bats or pangolin (and later confirmed).  Doesn't mean it didn't jump via another animal, but again that means it jumped naturally along this 1000 mile path and just happened to start in Wuhan.  

None of that is proof alone, but just like Jon Stewart pointed out on Colbert, it's those things that make you go 'hmm'.  

And again to focus on motives, emails show Fauci and other colleagues initially thought it could be a lab leak, but framed the storyline that it was absurd to think anything but natural.  I know you think I both sides everything, but seems to me there were some motives there too.

 

[Screwball]

Let's play hypothetical and say we found out it did come from a lab in Wuhan.  Honest accident, no nefarious intent by anyone.

Why are they doing this dangerous testing/research in the middle of a highly populated area of China where an accident can cause what we now are going through?  Is it really worth funding such a dangerous kind of thing?  Let's say it is, why is it not being done on a island out in the middle of nowhere so if something happens it won't infect half the fucking world?

To me, knowing where it came from should help us make sure it never happens again.  It killed over a couple million people, and over a million here in America.  But no, let's make it all political instead of finding the truth, so all the partisan hacks can argue, point fingers, get TV sound bytes, while people die.  What a fucking country.

[oblong]

When did Fauci say a lab leak theory was absurd?

 

[gehringer_2]

39 minutes ago, Screwball said:

Why are they doing this dangerous testing/research in the middle of a highly populated area of China where an accident can cause what we now are going through? 

You know how this kind of facility starts out as one thing, may morph into another. The same could have been at any US University. You build a bio reseach facility - then the you take on new areas of research. Where are you going to put them? Where the facilities already are - otherwise you can't afford it. Plus you need trained personnel, maybe you are joined to an academic institution - none of that stuff is going to be found out in the sticks in any country. The problem is that people get sloppy about safeguards because good protocols can be a pain to follow. The need to do the research on how diseases jump species is real enough - the devil is in the details. Part of the problem in China is that it's too easy for people who want to raise objections to things being done wrong to get railroaded out of the way. Hell you and I both know that happens too much here even given that our systems are supposedly 'open'. In China if there is political pressure to get ahead in some area of study, good luck.

And it's not like the Chinese were completely off the resevation in proposing to do 'Gain of function' reseach. IIRC correctly researchers at Wuhan participate in same grant and approval processes at NIH and have had various US partners in their work there.

Edited February 27, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Screwball]

14 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

You know how this kind of facility starts out as one thing, may morph into another. The same could have been at any US University. You build a bio reseach facility - then the you take on new areas of research. Where are you going to put them? Where the facilities already are - otherwise you can't afford it. Plus you need trained personnel, maybe you are joined to an academic institution - none of that stuff is going to be found out in the sticks in any country. The problem is that people get sloppy about safeguards because good protocols can be a pain to follow. The need to do the research on how diseases jump species is real enough - the devil is in the details. Part of the problem in China is that it's too easy for people who want to raise objections to things being done wrong to get railroaded out of the way. Hell you and I both know that happens too much here even given that our systems are supposedly 'open'. In China if there is political pressure to get ahead in some area of study, good luck.

And it's not like the Chinese were completely off the resevation in proposing to do 'Gain of function' reseach. IIRC correctly researchers at Wuhan participate in same grant and approval processes at NIH and have had various US partners in their work there.

So there is nothing we can do because things....

Not acceptable, and people that want to make excuses should be fired. You're fired.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

I'm not going to give a lab leak theory credibility based on what the likes of crazy people say.  That's what you are missing in all of this.  The motives.  They didn't care about the why.  They only cared about the who.  These people were throwing shit at the wall and had no basis to make their claims.  I have no skin in this game.  I will not "win" or "lose" based on what eventually happened if we'll ever know because the idiots will still be the idiots even if they guessed right on this one.  You can be correct for the wrong reasons when the outcome is one of two things.   If an old wives tale says that you are more likely to have a boy if you have sex in a certain position.... well there's a 50% chance that happens.  Doesn't mean it's because of what she said.  I'll still think the person is crazy for thinking that.

I don't think the WSJ reported actually moves the needle on the debate much. There is not enough data to support any conclusion, so everyone just shades toward the explanation they like most for their own reasons. Researchers won't accept that is was a reseach accident without proof as that is critical of reseasrch, and the political types won't accept it wasn't the result of some activity by a foreign power they are critical of without proof. And there is no 'proof' because the Chinese have made sure there won't be proof, probably because the Chinese don't want to have to deal with the fallout from either answer.

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, Screwball said:

So there is nothing we can do because things....

Not acceptable, and people that want to make excuses should be fired. You're fired.

Not at all nothing we can do. We can work to make sure there is more accountabilty and proper oversight. But that is always a *process*. There is no 'one and done' solution to this kind of stuff, which is what the politictians and pundits are always interested in.

Edited February 27, 2023 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, CMRivdogs said:

But it contained lots of big words and no pictures. 

It was also proof Obama was in on the conspiracy..

Also, no way Trump was ever going to let any [deleted] tell him what to do.

[Biff Mayhem]

2 hours ago, pfife said:

Are you doing what you called out, just in the other direction politically?   This sounds like "dudes who were right about it being a lab leak also said all of this true stuff".

I forgot to add one:

Vitamin D? HA!! No way!

🙂

Anyway, normally, no I don't go espousing my thoughts from the rooftops anymore but this is a situation where it is obvious that the lies originated from a money source. Insert the media, sponsored by Big Pharma, who promoted the lies/cover up and suckered over half the country.

I'm not dismissing the disease, I'm just sneering in the general direction of the bony hands still clutching onto every last thread of fear which is obviously still prominent in this online community. Congratulations you guys...you were successfully conditioned. 

[Tiger337]

10 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Also, no way Trump was ever going to let any [deleted] tell him what to do.

I don't think it was that.  I think Trump got mad because Obama roasted him at a big function in front of lots of important people.  Thus, he needed to reject everything he did.   

[Tiger337]

19 minutes ago, Biff Mayhem said:

I forgot to add one:

Vitamin D? HA!! No way!

🙂

Anyway, normally, no I don't go espousing my thoughts from the rooftops anymore but this is a situation where it is obvious that the lies originated from a money source. Insert the media, sponsored by Big Pharma, who promoted the lies/cover up and suckered over half the country.

I'm not dismissing the disease, I'm just sneering in the general direction of the bony hands still clutching onto every last thread of fear which is obviously still prominent in this online community. Congratulations you guys...you were successfully conditioned. 

Merck doesn't want you to know the real truth about Ivermectin.  

Edited February 27, 2023 by Tiger337

[chasfh]

5 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I don't think it was that.  I think Trump got mad because Obama roasted him at a big function in front of lots of important people.  Thus, he needed to reject everything he did.   

I think it was this, and I think it was that.

[Motown Bombers]

9 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Merck doesn't you to know the real truth about Ivermectin.  

I don't know when a multibillion dollar pharmaceutical company suddenly isn't big pharma. Also Merck states that Ivermectin hasn't been proven to be effective treatment for COVID. 

[ewsieg]

28 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I don't think the WSJ reported actually moves the needle on the debate much. There is not enough data to support any conclusion, so everyone just shades toward the explanation they like most for their own reasons. Researchers won't accept that is was a reseach accident without proof as that is critical of reseasrch, and the political types won't accept it wasn't the result of some activity by a foreign power they are critical of without proof. And there is no 'proof' because the Chinese have made sure there won't be proof, probably because the Chinese don't want to have to deal with the fallout from either answer.

There is apparently enough evidence to lean towards likely, where just until recently all the top experts either said everything pointed to natural or simply avoided the question.  

Did Fauci actually say it was absurd to think the lab leak was an option...no, he was very careful in how he said stuff.  But up until recently he would blow off the question, discuss how natural transmission happens, or 'own' Rand Paul instead of giving us his honest opinion, which again, we know now based on his initial emails that his first thought was lab leak, which counters everything he pushed towards the media. 

[Tigeraholic1]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

When did Fauci say a lab leak theory was absurd?

 

Ol' Gym thinks he has got you covered:

 

 

[oblong]

I always go with the politicians and talk show hosts over the scientists.

 

[Motown Bombers]

I like how the ones who push the conspiracy theory that China and the Democrats manufactured COVID to hurt Trump knew he was too incompetent to handle it. 

[oblong]

1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said:

I like how the ones who push the conspiracy theory that China and the Democrats manufactured COVID to hurt Trump knew he was too incompetent to handle it. 

Thats the sword that conspiracy theorists die on.  The same government they decry as being incompetent and all that... are the same ones who can also arrange for these elaborate conspiracies covering many different organizations and thousands of people and keep them all in line.

 

[oblong]

Politicians lack the ability to undersrtand nuance and scientific thought.  They have no qualms about lying and stating things as fact that aren't truth.  A scientist will not tell you the sun will come up tomorrrow because it is possible the earth will stop rotating and we'll all die.  So when a scientist says they don't know or aren't sure or the evidence isn't conclusive... well that shit don't fly in campaign commercials and ol' Gymbo and "Dr" Paul can't grandstand and mug for the camera and the half wit media commentators on the right play it up and their gullible followers eat it up. 

 

 

[Motown Bombers]

3 minutes ago, oblong said:

Thats the sword that conspiracy theorists die on.  The same government they decry as being incompetent and all that... are the same ones who can also arrange for these elaborate conspiracies covering many different organizations and thousands of people and keep them all in line.

 

Imagine thinking this and believing the government is out to get them at every turn and everyone else has been caught hook, line, sinker. 

[oblong]

3 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Imagine thinking this and believing the government is out to get them at every turn and everyone else has been caught hook, line, sinker. 

my favorite is the people who think hospitals get more money by making everything about covid.

because "that's what they heard".

Simply not true.

 

[Edman85]

I think people just don't understand exponential math. This is especially true when they rack up credit card debt, which our country is terrible at, but when you talk about a disease that spreads exponentially, something like mask wearing that can reduce spread a small amount really compounds once you get several potential disease hosts down the line.

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, ewsieg said:

And again to focus on motives, emails show Fauci and other colleagues initially thought it could be a lab leak, but framed the storyline that it was absurd to think anything but natural.  I know you think I both sides everything, but seems to me there were some motives there too.

The good evidence is genotype evidence, and the Chinese didn't let enough of that be collected, or if they collected it aren't saying what they have. There are pretty good ways way to trace the evolution of a virus IF you have the data. If the data had been collected (or released?) the probability of an unambigous answer would have been pretty good.  The fact that everyone is reduced to speculation is the result of a lack sufficient hard evidence. Different groups and can slice and dice their insufficent data sets to make any kind of 'weak' conclusions the like, does not increase what we actually know. When it comes to 'weak' conclusions, anyone's are about as good as anyone else's.

Edited February 27, 2023 by gehringer_2