oblong Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Covid is still going on and people naturally have Covid fatigue. The vaccines didn't give us a magic victory parade over Covid like some hoped and thought would happen. I think public health officials and the broader medical community created a false sense of hope that vaccinations would end the pandemic and stop people from getting Covid, even if it was never directly implied, I think a lot of people implicitly felt that way about getting a vax. Clearly they have not ended the pandemic. Inflation went up largely as a result of supply chain issues and a sudden rush in demand due to people having not spent a whole lot of money over the past year. It was also effected by tightening in the oil and gas market and the mass resignation of workers and the rise in wages that came with it. From publications I've read from the San Francisco Fed they said about .3% of inflation is attributed to the American Rescue Plan that Biden and the Democrats passed. So well some are hot to trot about blaming the ARP stimulus, I don't think it had as big an effect on inflation as partisan hacks want you to believe it did. The other problem for Biden is he and the Democrats bumbled their agenda and not only didn't get BBB passed, they looked like children fighting with each other all the while negotiating it. Democrats and the White House have done a terrible job messaging what's in BBB and an even worse job controlling their infighting during the negotiations. Combine that with the fact that nothing has passed yet, and it is certain to hurt the President's reputation along with all the aforementioned things. If inflation stays high through most of 2022 and doesn't start coming down in the next 4-6 months, if covid and these new antivirals don't start working better, and if some version of BBB with better messaging doesn't pass than the party and President are screwed. I don’t think the medical community have that impression at all. Their message was whatever our vaccinated rate was, it wasn’t good enough. We are where we are because of the unvaccinated. Its their fault. If we had higher numbers then we wouldn’t have the hospitalization stress. The community always warned of variants breaking thru and causing infected people among vaccinated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 I learned about the vaccines through work b/c I work in medical research. IT was December 2020 and they presented all 5 of the vaccines, which include Astra Zeneca and Sputnik in addition to the three we love currently. One measure of efficacy that WAS NOT reported in the research was "contracted" The metrics were hospitalization and death. I wrote about it on the old forum in December 2020. The N was 90k across all 5 vaccines at that time and the rates were 100%. Vaccines don't stop transmission of virus. It stops illness from the virus. Polio vaccine doesn't stop polio virus. It stops poliomyelitis. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, pfife said: I learned about the vaccines through work b/c I work in medical research. IT was December 2020 and they presented all 5 of the vaccines, which include Astra Zeneca and Sputnik in addition to the three we love currently. One measure of efficacy that WAS NOT reported in the research was "contracted" The metrics were hospitalization and death. I wrote about it on the old forum in December 2020. The N was 90k across all 5 vaccines at that time and the rates were 100%. Vaccines don't stop transmission of virus. It stops illness from the virus. Polio vaccine doesn't stop polio virus. It stops poliomyelitis. right - by definition you have to be "infected" before any vaccine can do anything. How effective a vaccine is can vary all the way from so effective the virus can't multiply at all (these are the cases that stop spread the best), to effective enough you may become infectious but not sick, to you may still get somewhat sick but not get as sick or die, and everywhere in between. What we have seen with COVID is that the vaccine prevented replication of alpha and delta well enough that they were pretty good at stopping spread, but they don't stop replication of Omicron effectively to stop its spread nearly as well. That does NOT mean they don't still help prevent serious Omicron illness, which evidence appears strong they do. Edited January 13, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 You go ahead and get your Horse Paste..................I'm going to House of Dank https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3v3ax/scientists-cannabis-can-prevent-covid-19-infection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 11 hours ago, pfife said: I learned about the vaccines through work b/c I work in medical research. IT was December 2020 and they presented all 5 of the vaccines, which include Astra Zeneca and Sputnik in addition to the three we love currently. One measure of efficacy that WAS NOT reported in the research was "contracted" The metrics were hospitalization and death. I wrote about it on the old forum in December 2020. The N was 90k across all 5 vaccines at that time and the rates were 100%. Vaccines don't stop transmission of virus. It stops illness from the virus. Polio vaccine doesn't stop polio virus. It stops poliomyelitis. One of the things I have learned is I do feel like the ability of the vaccine to reduce transmission was very overplayed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Definitely possible, I think it might also not be particularly measurable - if someone gets the virus but doesn't become symptomatic (or is symptomatic for less time) then they'd be less contagious but we don't know a) how may asymptomatic folks are out there and b) whether they're asymptomatic b/c of the vaccine or the normal behavior of the virus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 I recall early on the experts wouldn't say it prevented transmission and spread. I wanted to know that info and there wasn't enough data to support it and nobody of credibility would go on record. The closest I saw was "it looks like it might".... something like that. They couldn't test that in the trials without delaying it and it wasn't considered critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 I've heard several times to get the vaccine to stop the spread. I think it did help a lot with the other variants but this latest one is spreading quickly. There are some reports that Omicron variant is milder. If that's true the current vaccines may not have any impact at all on it. I still think its wise to get the vaccine because nobody knows for sure yet. If the vaccine doesn't work on the current variant I wonder if the next variants will be the same. If so we could be in trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 the vaccine doesn't work on the current variant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Archie said: There are some reports that Omicron variant is milder. If that's true the current vaccines may not have any impact at all on it. Part of why it may appear milder may be the high vaccination rate tho - certainly if one looks at the hospitalization / mortality numbers, there has been evidence that outcomes with the unvaccinated are a lot worse. Even with the new variant. Edited January 13, 2022 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 32 minutes ago, pfife said: the vaccine doesn't work on the current variant? Yeah, that doesn't add up at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 5 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Yeah, that doesn't add up at all. That guy you replied to is a troll and I blocked him a long time ago. He has nothing worthwhile to offer and he just wants to stir up trouble. If you look at my comment I said IF the vaccine doesn't work. Nobody knows for sure if its working against the latest variant or the variant is more mild. I really hope it's working because if it isn't, it might not work on the next variant which could be more serious. There are more unknowns than knowns with the virus and vaccine at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 The vaccines aren't as effective at preventing initial infection but the backup T cells are still there to keep the disease mild. Which was the point all along. It's milder for most people but can still be dangerous for those compromised or unvaccinated. You can still get infected and transmit but at a much lower rate than if you were not vaccinated which if everybody did their part then overall transmission would be lower. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 16 minutes ago, Archie said: That guy you replied to is a troll and I blocked him a long time ago. He has nothing worthwhile to offer and he just wants to stir up trouble. If you look at my comment I said IF the vaccine doesn't work. Nobody knows for sure if its working against the latest variant or the variant is more mild. I really hope it's working because if it isn't, it might not work on the next variant which could be more serious. There are more unknowns than knowns with the virus and vaccine at this time. If the vaccines are causing illnesses to be milder, then the vaccines are working. Hospitalization / mortality data seems to suggest this. So yes, seems pretty clear the vaccines are working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 7 minutes ago, oblong said: The vaccines aren't as effective at preventing initial infection but the backup T cells are still there to keep the disease mild. Which was the point all along. It's milder for most people but can still be dangerous for those compromised or unvaccinated. You can still get infected and transmit but at a much lower rate than if you were not vaccinated which if everybody did their part then overall transmission would be lower. This seems pretty in-line with everything I've heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 it's amazing to see how infectious this thing is when you look at all the charts.... it's a straight line up for every region/target that is in the Omicron wave. NYC thinks their peak is over. Boston' tests their wastewater which has been a great indicator to predict cases and they are showing decreases. Michigan appears to be pleateauing, although at a very high rate still. The question will be how much immunity this provides for the future. This could be the transition to an epidemic stage.... What is troubling though is volume. A lower rate and mild cases doesn't mean a lot in terms of hospital impact because, for reference compare a 5% hospital rate against 100,000 infected to a 1% hospital rate against 1,000,000. You could say "It's 80% less severe" but 10K patients is still 10K patients and twice what you had before for a "mild" illness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) 36 minutes ago, mtutiger said: If the vaccines are causing illnesses to be milder, then the vaccines are working. Hospitalization / mortality data seems to suggest this. yes. In Washtenaw county vax rates are getting near 80% but the majority of hospital admits are still unvaxed. When you consider that vax rates are highest in the most vulnerable populations - the elderly, it's pretty clear that vaccination is helping people resist Omicron illness as well even if the they are less effective at preventing spread with Omicron than with previous variants. Edited January 13, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 2 hours ago, Edman85 said: One of the things I have learned is I do feel like the ability of the vaccine to reduce transmission was very overplayed. if so, what is the justification for requiring people to get vaccinated before they can go to work in person or to go into a bar or restaurant? is that an effort to force people to get vaccinated for their own good? which, while laudable, wasnt really the way it was argued or presented to the public, iirc. i could be remembering it wrong. if this becomes endemic or seasonal, do we require people to get vaccines for it every year? or is it just a suggestion like the flu vaccine? i guess that depends on the virulence of whatever future covid strain comes down the pike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 20 minutes ago, buddha said: if so, what is the justification for requiring people to get vaccinated before they can go to work in person or to go into a bar or restaurant? is that an effort to force people to get vaccinated for their own good? which, while laudable, wasnt really the way it was argued or presented to the public, iirc. i could be remembering it wrong. if this becomes endemic or seasonal, do we require people to get vaccines for it every year? or is it just a suggestion like the flu vaccine? i guess that depends on the virulence of whatever future covid strain comes down the pike. My understanding is that everything that has been done since the beginning of the pandemic has been done largely to prevent hospitals from exceeding capacity. So, getting vaccinated is for your own good and the good of everyone else. I really wish that hospitalization trends were presented more often rather than just cases (which isn't very useful) and deaths. Whether or not people will need to get vaccinated every year will probably depend on how many people are projected to get seriously ill. If it becomes "like the flu" then they probably won't require annual vaccinations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 depends on the contagiousness of whatever strain is dominant at the time. Omicron is on a different level than what we saw prior. The vaccines do prevent spread. Not every vaccinated person will get infected if exposed. And not every infected vaccinated person will spread it and if they do it's at a much lower rate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Not very proud to be a transplanted Hoosier these days… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 13, 2022 Author Share Posted January 13, 2022 2 hours ago, Archie said: I've heard several times to get the vaccine to stop the spread. I think it did help a lot with the other variants but this latest one is spreading quickly. There are some reports that Omicron variant is milder. If that's true the current vaccines may not have any impact at all on it. I still think its wise to get the vaccine because nobody knows for sure yet. If the vaccine doesn't work on the current variant I wonder if the next variants will be the same. If so we could be in trouble. The vaccine does stop the spread. Typically speaking, when someone who is vaccinated is exposed to the virus, the presence of the vaccine in the system prevents the body from taking on sufficient enough load to make them very ill, and also to spread it around. Get enough people vaccinated, and the spread of the virus dissipates to negligible levels, and we can all go back to shouting at each other in loud bars. As long as there's a substantial segment of people who militantly avoid vaccination, when exposed to the virus, they will ingest it in substantial enough quantities to spread it around, and so many of them will get very sick. And since such people tend to congregate as a group, that's what's been keeping the virus alive for the entire country, and has remained dangerous and mutational for that segment of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 21 minutes ago, oblong said: depends on the contagiousness of whatever strain is dominant at the time. Omicron is on a different level than what we saw prior. The vaccines do prevent spread. Not every vaccinated person will get infected if exposed. And not every infected vaccinated person will spread it and if they do it's at a much lower rate. what is the data on spread between being vaxed and not vaxed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 13, 2022 Author Share Posted January 13, 2022 2 hours ago, Archie said: That guy you replied to is a troll and I blocked him a long time ago. He has nothing worthwhile to offer and he just wants to stir up trouble. You're barking up the wrong tree here, new guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.