buddha Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 14 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: And Indiana is worse than all those states in case rate right now so I'm not sure what point this proves? washington vax rate: 70% california: 69% oregon 68% minnesota 67% all with mask mandates. all with higher covid rates than indiana. so im not sure what point youre trying to prove. covid spreads for all sorts of reasons and the mitigation efforts, while sometimes admirable, are oftentimes not that effective. urban v rural, pop density, remote work v factory work, probably have much more effect than a mask mandate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 its all about risk tolerance at this point. as long as the hospitals arent overwhelmed - and they are not in almost every place - then life should be moving along back to normal as soon as possible. at what point does the mask mandate end? zero covid? at what point do we treat this as a severe flu and get on with our lives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 1 minute ago, buddha said: washington vax rate: 70% california: 69% oregon 68% minnesota 67% all with mask mandates. all with higher covid rates than indiana. so im not sure what point youre trying to prove. covid spreads for all sorts of reasons and the mitigation efforts, while sometimes admirable, are oftentimes not that effective. urban v rural, pop density, remote work v factory work, probably have much more effect than a mask mandate. Washington, California, Oregon and Minnesota overall have lower case rates and deaths than Indiana. Those states are peaking right now but Indiana's peak has been much worse. Again, this all started because Tiger inserted Indiana into a discussion about Virginia when Virginia is doing much better than Indiana right now. You are now just rattling off states because of reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 My brother got done with Chemotherapy and has a weakened immune system. He has a 6 year old going to 1st grade. The issue is the child carrying the virus and spreading it, but heaven forbid we inconvenience someone. Maybe when COVID transmission levels get below that of the flu we can relax mandates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Just now, Motown Bombers said: Washington, California, Oregon and Minnesota overall have lower case rates and deaths than Indiana. Those states are peaking right now but Indiana's peak has been much worse. Again, this all started because Tiger inserted Indiana into a discussion about Virginia when Virginia is doing much better than Indiana right now. You are now just rattling off states because of reasons. first you quoted masks for why indiana is marginally worse than similar states in cases per 100k, then you quoted vax rates as why indiana is marginally worse. all i did was point out based on your criteria that indiana is actually doing better in cases per 100k (which - again - was the measurement that you brought up) than states that have mask mandates and higher vax percentages. i'm just using your own criteria. you just keep moving the goal posts whenever your original point gets undermined by the same statistics you used to make it. we get your point. republicans are stoopid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said: My brother got done with Chemotherapy and has a weakened immune system. He has a 6 year old going to 1st grade. The issue is the child carrying the virus and spreading it, but heaven forbid we inconvenience someone. Maybe when COVID transmission levels get below that of the flu we can relax mandates. so when do we end mask mandates, when covid is completely gone? like 0% covid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Just now, buddha said: first you quoted masks for why indiana is marginally worse than similar states in cases per 100k, then you quoted vax rates as why indiana is marginally worse. all i did was point out based on your criteria that indiana is actually doing better in cases per 100k (which - again - was the measurement that you brought up) than states that have mask mandates and higher vax percentages. i'm just using your own criteria. you just keep moving the goal posts whenever your original point gets undermined by the same statistics you used to make it. we get your point. republicans are stoopid. If you feel stupid that's your own doing not mine. I did not bring Indiana into this conversation. I originally posted a video of a woman in Virginia asking the governor to mask up. It was at that point Indiana was brought in as well things are going fine here without an masks. At which point I pointed out the fact that Indiana is doing much worse than Virginia. Again, if that fact makes you feel stupid, that's your issue. Then you come along with a whatabout California. Sure California is peaking right now, but the peaks in Indiana have been worse and maybe the reason California's peak isn't as bad as Indiana's have been is because of things like masks and vaccines. If all this makes you feel stupid, or stoopid as you put it, that's on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said: If you feel stupid that's your own doing not mine. I did not bring Indiana into this conversation. I originally posted a video of a woman in Virginia asking the governor to mask up. It was at that point Indiana was brought in as well things are going fine here without an masks. At which point I pointed out the fact that Indiana is doing much worse than Virginia. Again, if that fact makes you feel stupid, that's your issue. Then you come along with a whatabout California. Sure California is peaking right now, but the peaks in Indiana have been worse and maybe the reason California's peak isn't as bad as Indiana's have been is because of things like masks and vaccines. If all this makes you feel stupid, or stoopid as you put it, that's on you. right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 5 minutes ago, buddha said: so when do we end mask mandates, when covid is completely gone? like 0% covid? Probably when the transmission rate becomes less than that of the common flu and/or we reach a high enough vaccination rate. Ultimately, I'll defer to medical professionals instead of what inconveniences you. Sorry if that makes you feel stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Just now, buddha said: right. It would be easier if you just come to the conclusion I'm right several posts ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said: Probably when the transmission rate becomes less than that of the common flu and/or we reach a high enough vaccination rate. Ultimately, I'll defer to medical professionals instead of what inconveniences you. Sorry if that makes you feel stupid. right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Just now, buddha said: right. Ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) 34 minutes ago, buddha said: so when do we end mask mandates, when covid is completely gone? like 0% covid? 5/100k. The standard from the Epids has been out there from the beginning. If Covid should become an 'ordinary' circulating 'common cold' that might be too low, but it's not like the people in the field haven't thought about this stuff, you just don't hear it reported. Edited February 5, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) Vax rates are probably a pretty reliable statistic to compare from state to state as one must got to some type of professional that documents the treatment. Covid rate is totally different and very difficult to accurately measure at this point. How many millions tested positive via home test or had symptoms and stayed home for 5 days without ever going to a doctor. There’s no way to account for these people. Nobody is self reporting these numbers. It’s certainly plausible that positive numbers per state are skewed not by the actual virus but the method people chose to test or get treatment. Edited February 5, 2022 by Hongbit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: My brother got done with Chemotherapy and has a weakened immune system. He has a 6 year old going to 1st grade. The issue is the child carrying the virus and spreading it, but heaven forbid we inconvenience someone. Maybe when COVID transmission levels get below that of the flu we can relax mandates. I am sorry to hear this, these are the people we need to protect. Hopefully you nephew can get some kid size N95 masks to help protect your brother. My only real point was masks in schools do little via sceince to stop the spread as I was using Indiana schools as an example. This whole discussion started when you mentioned Foreskin was trying to override local gov't about mask mandates if I recall. Edited February 5, 2022 by Tigeraholic1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Hongbit said: Vax rates are probably a pretty reliable statistic to compare from state to state as one must got to some type of professional that documents the treatment. Covid rate is totally different and very difficult to accurately measure at this point. How many millions tested positive via home test or had symptoms and stayed home for 5 days without ever going to a doctor. There’s no way to account for these people. Nobody is self reporting these numbers. It’s certainly plausible that positive numbers per state are skewed not by the actual virus but how people chose to test and get treated. Correct, incidence numbers are pretty useless at this point. Hospitalizations and fatalities are more meaningful comparisons now. Even vax rates have to be tempered by accounting for how much 'natural' immunity is in a community from prior infection, and then that is complicated by the fact that the different strains apparently produce varying levels of resistance to other strains. The reports are that having had Omicron provides better natural immunity than Delta, despite being the less serious disease. But I wouldn't consider the knowledge base there cast in stone either. Edited February 5, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 13 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: 5/100k. The standard from the Epids has been out there from the beginning. If Covid should become an 'ordinary' circulating 'common cold' that might be too low, but it's not like the people in the field haven't thought about this stuff, you just don't hear it reported. what is 5/100k mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, buddha said: what is 5/100k mean? 5 cases/100,000 population per day. We were almost there in the dip after the initial surge but began to relax too soon before getting far enough to really keep it down. At that point we were facing the Chinese decision - clamp down the rest of the way and kill it or live (and die) with it. Political and ethical considerations completely to the side, any country could have tried to do what China did and I don't doubt they keep a better lid on it than we have. But whether to have pursued a Chinese style strategy is not in the end an epidemiological question, it's a political one about how much a life is worth vs how much you have to do to save it. We make that decision all the time in many different areas and for Covid the US has come down in an almost uniquely extreme position wrt not caring much about lost life compared to the 'cost' of saving it. So we get to keep our red hats and have one of the highest death rates in the 1st world. That's just been the way the cookie crumbled. The Chinese OTOH, have decided to value life extremely highly, not least in a politcal gambit to show that their system can produce a kind of favorable result the West can't. To each his own I guess. Edited February 5, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 36 minutes ago, Hongbit said: Vax rates are probably a pretty reliable statistic to compare from state to state as one must got to some type of professional that documents the treatment. Covid rate is totally different and very difficult to accurately measure at this point. How many millions tested positive via home test or had symptoms and stayed home for 5 days without ever going to a doctor. There’s no way to account for these people. Nobody is self reporting these numbers. It’s certainly plausible that positive numbers per state are skewed not by the actual virus but the method people chose to test or get treatment. Testing and 5 days, huh? My anti-vax, anti-mask neighbor had a "cold" for about a week. Never got tested, still hasn't worn a mask and didn't isolate for a day, let alone 5 days. I suspect there's a lot of people like that. Real tough guys don't get sick. And if you do, it's your fault for having high blood pressure or an autoimmune problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 15 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: 5 cases/100,000 population per day. We were almost there in the dip after the initial surge but began to relax too soon before getting far enough to really keep it down. At that point we were facing the Chinese decision - clamp down the rest of the way and kill it or live (and die) with it. Political and ethical considerations completely to the side, any country could have tried to do what China did and I don't doubt they keep a better lid on it than we have. But whether to have pursued a Chinese style strategy is not in the end an epidemiological question, it's a political one about how much a life is worth vs how much you have to do to save it. We make that decision all the time in many different areas and for Covid the US has come down in an almost uniquely extreme position wrt not caring much about lost life compared to the 'cost' of saving it. So we get to keep our red hats and have one of the highest death rates in the 1st world. That's just been the way the cookie crumbled. The Chinese OTOH, have decided to value life extremely highly, not least in a politcal gambit to show that their system can produce a kind of favorable result the West can't. To each his own I guess. are you saying you'd rather have the chinese method of welding people inside their homes in order to stop a virus that 98-99% of the people who get it survive? really? and the chinese are likely lying their collectice asses off about how many people there have died of covid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 1 minute ago, Sports_Freak said: Testing and 5 days, huh? My anti-vax, anti-mask neighbor had a "cold" for about a week. Never got tested, still hasn't worn a mask and didn't isolate for a day, let alone 5 days. I suspect there's a lot of people like that. Real tough guys don't get sick. And if you do, it's your fault for having high blood pressure or an autoimmune problem. my pro-vax mother in law got covid, had a bad cold for two days, then immediately went back to work. lives in a house with a 90 year old and a teenager who went to school every day and a daughter who works for the cdc. everyone is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, buddha said: are you saying you'd rather have the chinese method of welding people inside their homes in order to stop a virus that 98-99% of the people who get it survive? really? and the chinese are likely lying their collectice asses off about how many people there have died of covid. you're reading a judgment into a set of statements that are simply statements. My *judgment* on the question would be that what the Chinese have done would have been too extreme in the other direction for us, though I'm not prepared to say it's been a mistake for the Chinese - different culture, different expectations, different everything. OTOH, I do think as a nation the US has been way too cavalier about accepting the death rates in pursuit of some mythical kind of cowboy freedom. Probably because so many of the deaths were of the old, and as a society we'd rather not see the old at all if we can help it. American's don't like being reminding of their mortality - we'd rather spend our time being vicarious super-heroes. Edited February 5, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, buddha said: my pro-vax mother in law got covid, had a bad cold for two days, then immediately went back to work. lives in a house with a 90 year old and a teenager who went to school every day and a daughter who works for the cdc. everyone is fine. Your're not arguing from one anecdote that 800K+ Americans haven't really died are you? (!) Edited February 5, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 11 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: you're reading a judgment into a set of statements that are simply statements. My *judgment* on the question would be that what the Chinese have done would have been too extreme in the other direction for us, though I'm not prepared to say it's been a mistake for the Chinese - different culture, different expectations, different everything. OTOH, I do think as a nation the US has been way too cavalier about accepting the death rates in pursuit of some mythical kind of cowboy freedom. Probably because so many of the deaths were of the old, and as a society we'd rather not see the old at all if we can help it. American's don't like being reminding of their mortality - we'd rather spend our time being vicarious super-heroes. i think what the chinese did was too extreme, period. but its not my culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said: are you arguing from one anecdote that 800K+ Americans haven't really died? i am arguing no such thing. i do think that the scenario in my extended family is fairly common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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