Coronavirus: Already In a Neighborhood Near You

[Tigeraholic1]

Sure, let’s look to China.

[gehringer_2]

Just now, buddha said:

i am arguing no such thing.

i do think that the scenario in my extended family is fairly common.

well that is good! My student lab has run in person right through this all also. We took reasonable precautions that were a pain to live with but we didn't have any documented cases of transmission and the U was tracking pretty closely. But that's the thing, we didn't need to be China to at least be Canada ( 1/3 the death rate of the US). My complaint was the refusal of so many Americans to be even a little bit reasonable for the sake of their neighbor's parents. 

Sure, the epidemiological issues have become more nuanced with Omicron - but the basic "kiss my asz" attitude remains, and that is what disappoints me the most.

[buddha]

6 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

well that is good! My student lab has run in person right through this all also. We took reasonable precautions that were a pain to live with but we didn't have any documented cases of transmission and the U was tracking pretty closely. But that's the thing, we didn't need to be China to at least be Canada ( 1/3 the death rate of the US). My complaint was the refusal of so many Americans to be even a little bit reasonable for the sake of their neighbor's parents. 

Sure, the epidemiological issues have become more nuanced with Omicron - but the basic "kiss my asz" attitude remains, and that is what disappoints me the most.

i would much rather have the us approach than the canadian approach.  the canadian approach is overkill, imo.  

denmark has ended all restrictions despite having a lot of cases.  

[Tigeraholic1]

50 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

The Chinese OTOH, have decided to value life extremely highly, not least in a politcal gambit to show that their system can produce a kind of favorable result the West can't. 

Brainwashed much lol, wow….. I’m sorry bro that some shit right there.

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Brainwashed much lol, wow….. I’m sorry bro that some shit right there.

you need to read more press reporting from China. Xi's whole approach to Covid is to try to portray the Chinese model as a more efficient/effective form of gov and he has decided a good way to do that is to try to prove China can do a better job agains COVID and that means yes - the Chinese are trying harder to get a lower death toll. Of course it makes a virtue of the tools of repression, but that's the point for Xi. When you look beyond the borders of the US you should always park your Manicheanism at the door. The real world is not a black and white place.

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Motown Bombers]

6 minutes ago, buddha said:

i would much rather have the us approach than the canadian approach.  the canadian approach is overkill, imo.  

denmark has ended all restrictions despite having a lot of cases.  

LOL many more Americans have died than Canadians. Sorry, the Canadian way is better. 

[gehringer_2]

10 minutes ago, buddha said:

i would much rather have the us approach than the canadian approach.  the canadian approach is overkill, imo.  

we'll agree to disagree.

[Tigeraholic1]

4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

you need to read more press reporting from China. Xi's whole approach to Covid is to try to portray the Chinese model as a more efficient/effective form of gov and he has decided a good way to do that is to try to prove China can do a better job agains COVID and that means yes - the Chinese are trying harder to get a lower death toll. Of course it makes a virtue of the tools of repression, but that's the point for Xi. When you look beyond the borders of the US you should always park your Manicheanism at the door. The real world is not a black and white place.

 

Ok China 🇨🇳 loves its people so much. Thank you for educating me on this. I mean communism is awesome if you look at it from the real worlds eyes 👀 got it! I thought they were the most repressive country on the planet! But not anymore, so awesome to know I have been seeing the world too black and white. I am sure the Chinese Uyghur’s feel the same don’t you? 

[gehringer_2]

20 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Ok China 🇨🇳 loves its people so much. Thank you for educating me on this. I mean communism is awesome if you look at it from the real worlds eyes 👀 got it! I thought they were the most repressive country on the planet! But not anymore, so awesome to know I have been seeing the world too black and white. I am sure the Chinese Uyghur’s feel the same don’t you? 

like I said, if you are incapable of seeing that China is a complex enough place to be capable of repressing the Uyghur's while still attempting to excel the West in public health, that is your limitation of vision. How many millions did we kill in Vietnam on the heels of eradicating Polio? Just so that the "communist" government there could be more of an ally than enemy to us today? (and there is almost nothing that Karl Marx would recognize in today's China as  'communism' either.).

There are no simple nations.

Edited February 5, 2022 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

30 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

we'll agree to disagree.

its all about how much risk youre willing to tolerate.  canada has a much lower risk tolerance than we do and you seem to have a lower risk tolerance than me.  perfectly understandable and, like you said, we'll agree to disagree.

[mtutiger]

2 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

Probably when the transmission rate becomes less than that of the common flu and/or we reach a high enough vaccination rate. Ultimately, I'll defer to medical professionals instead of what inconveniences you. Sorry if that makes you feel stupid. 

And, to the extent that policies on masks have anything to do with politics, when the majority nationally *wants* them to end.

I understand Buddha's perspective here, and the science with this new variant as to the efficacy of masking seems to suggest that they are less effective against Omicron, but again, when things like requiring masks in school go from being a "55%" issue to a "30%" issue, maybe you will see more movement. As it exists, we aren't there yet. Maybe if Omicron continues to fade, the ground will shift.

[buddha]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

And, to the extent that policies on masks have anything to do with politics, when the majority nationally *wants* them to end.

I understand Buddha's perspective here, and the science with this new variant as to the efficacy of masking seems to suggest that they are less effective against Omicron, but again, when things like requiring masks in school go from being a "55%" issue to a "30%" issue, maybe you will see more movement. As it exists, we aren't there yet. Maybe if Omicron continues to fade, the ground will shift.

not only that, but the vaccines do not stop the spread of omicron.  so why do we have mandates that you have to be vaccinated before going into a restaurant?  much less enter a country like canada has.

not to mention the silliness of forcing people to wear a mask when entering a restaurant, but not when sitting down to eat.  silly theater.

[gehringer_2]

3 minutes ago, buddha said:

not only that, but the vaccines do not stop the spread of omicron.  so why do we have mandates that you have to be vaccinated before going into a restaurant?  much less enter a country like canada has.

not to mention the silliness of forcing people to wear a mask when entering a restaurant, but not when sitting down to eat.  silly theater.

bars and restaurants have been the Achilles heal for Covid for the developed countries the whole way. Eating and drinking around a table appears to be the best way there is short of direct injection to spread the virus -- but just closing them all and paying everyone involved off for an open ended time frame was just a political/social bridge too far.

[Sports_Freak]

29 minutes ago, buddha said:

not only that, but the vaccines do not stop the spread of omicron.  so why do we have mandates that you have to be vaccinated before going into a restaurant?  

 

People with short memories need to be reminded. The vaccine was developed for the Alpha and Delta variants of covid. And the vaccine worked very good against the early variants. It's why such a huge % of hospitalizations and deaths were the unvaxxed.

And the vaccine protects against hospitalizations and deaths from the omicron variant.. I really can't believe you didn't know these basic facts.

[Sports_Freak]

Nice thread on masks;

 

[Sports_Freak]

2 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

LOL many more Americans have died than Canadians. Sorry, the Canadian way is better. 

Agreed. People want covid to be over. I get that, I want it over too. But covid sets the time, we don't.  I mean, I want winter over now but what I want and when it ends isn't up to any of us.

[Sports_Freak]

3 hours ago, buddha said:

my pro-vax mother in law got covid, had a bad cold for two days, then immediately went back to work.  lives in a house with a 90 year old and a teenager who went to school every day and a daughter who works for the cdc.

everyone is fine.

Cool...the vaccine worked. Pretty lucky.

[Sports_Freak]

3 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

you need to read more press reporting from China. Xi's whole approach to Covid is to try to portray the Chinese model as a more efficient/effective form of gov and he has decided a good way to do that is to try to prove China can do a better job agains COVID and that means yes - the Chinese are trying harder to get a lower death toll. Of course it makes a virtue of the tools of repression, but that's the point for Xi. When you look beyond the borders of the US you should always park your Manicheanism at the door. The real world is not a black and white place.

 

And the Chinese can build an 8000 bed hospital in 3 days....lmao

Edited February 5, 2022 by Sports_Freak

[gehringer_2]

3 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

And the Chinese can build an 8000 bed hospital in 3 days....lmao

they didn't say it might not fall on you.

Just remember before you jump on the China can't do anything right bus that if you emptied your house of all the things you bought from them you'd be living a very different life. There is plenty to knock the Chinese for, but for better or worse, we are now locked into an economic symbiosis with them. To the degree we have allowed China to make our lifestyle possible, we are complicit in how they have accomplished that.

Edited February 5, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Sports_Freak]

19 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

they didn't say it might not fall on you.

Just remember before you jump on the China can't do anything right bus that if you emptied your house of all the things you bought from them you'd be living a very different life. There is plenty to knock the Chinese for, but for better or worse, we are now locked into an economic symbiosis with them. To the degree we have allowed China to make our lifestyle possible, we are complicit in how they have accomplished that.

True. Some companies are returning manufacturing here. But trying to buy 100% American made products is almost impossible.

[Sports_Freak]

Unvaccinated stats;

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/24/cdc-study-shows-unvaccinated-people-are-29-times-more-likely-to-be-hospitalized-with-covid.html

[Tigeraholic1]

3 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

like I said, if you are incapable of seeing that China is a complex enough place to be capable of repressing the Uyghur's while still attempting to excel the West in public health, that is your limitation of vision. How many millions did we kill in Vietnam on the heels of eradicating Polio? Just so that the "communist" government there could be more of an ally than enemy to us today? (and there is almost nothing that Karl Marx would recognize in today's China as  'communism' either.).

There are no simple nations.

So let me get this straight. Chinas forcible lock down is ok in the name of Covid. Xi also gets a pass for current policy of genocide because uhh Vietnam which ended 50 years ago.

I so want to move more of my views to the left. Then I see ideals like this and think this is how Red Hats justify Trumpism. 

 

[ewsieg]

16 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Cloth mask = 56%

surgical mask = 66%

N95 mask = 83%

My brother's facility can get fined if their staff are wearing a non-fitted N95 mask which they do for staff that has to work with Covid patients.  But if you don't work in that area and want to wear an N95, nope, take it off and wear the surgical mask.  They finally got it in writing that staff can wear a non-fitted kn95 or n95 if they wear a surgical mask over it.

But hey, walk into a restaurant with a cloth mask and take it off as soon as you sit down and all is good.  Or watch the biggest stars that are screaming about Rogan on their twitter feed when they are at the Superbowl next week.  They'll proudly wear their masks as they walk in, only to be maskless the whole game because they have a bowl of popcorn in front of them that they are occasionally eating.  

10 hours ago, mtutiger said:

This has been a continual gripe of mine throughout this pandemic.

Republicans used to hate big government and love local control... now they seem to just talk about hating big government in Washington while telling local governments how to run themselves at the state level. 

In terms of things like mask orders, again, policies may reflect more the desires of the community than some are willing to recognize. 

That's always the case with both parties, and yes, it's asinine.  They lean towards a certain way of doing something until they realize it doesn't work for one specific thing they want to do.  I complained about Whitmer late in 2020 when she spent the beginning saying she couldn't leave it up to the localities and had to have statewide lockdowns and restrictions.  Eventually changes that to zones after the realization of the damage it did to areas that weren't having trouble and by the end of 2020 she was lying, stating she had no power to enact any restrictions at the state level and letting the localities deal with it.  

3 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

People with short memories need to be reminded. The vaccine was developed for the Alpha and Delta variants of covid. And the vaccine worked very good against the early variants. It's why such a huge % of hospitalizations and deaths were the unvaxxed.

And the vaccine protects against hospitalizations and deaths from the omicron variant.. I really can't believe you didn't know these basic facts.

I'm not sure what you saw in Buddha's post that you felt was wrong.  He's not saying vaccinations are bad.  He's simply stating that at this point, we know you can still be vaccinated and spread it.  I didn't see anything from him indicating that vaccines don't protect you from the virus.

[ewsieg]

2 hours ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

So let me get this straight. Chinas forcible lock down is ok in the name of Covid. Xi also gets a pass for current policy of genocide because uhh Vietnam which ended 50 years ago.

No, he's saying you can look at China's issues separately and judge them on their own merits.  One can be good, despite something else being bad.

All that said, I contend that if the US flipped the Obesity rate with China or Canada, and nothing else changes, those other countries have more Covid deaths (per capita) than the US.  

 

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

So let me get this straight. Chinas forcible lock down is ok in the name of Covid. Xi also gets a pass for current policy of genocide because uhh Vietnam which ended 50 years ago.

I so want to move more of my views to the left. Then I see ideals like this and think this is how Red Hats justify Trumpism. 

 

you have don't 'have it straight." No one said anything is "OK", no one said one thing justifies the other, only that both things exist together in one complex reality, just like how the US does some great stuff and some shitty stuff. The Chinese today see Islam as exactly the same kind of existential threat to them that we saw Communism as 70 years ago and they are doing the same kind of horrible stuff in the name of those unfounded fears that we did 70 yrs ago in the name of ours. In fact we have a president not too long ago that wanted to 'ban Muslims'. Our sympathy for Muslim populations as a nation even today in fact tends to track inversely to the possibility of them emigrating here, which makes the Uyghurs a safe object of our political sympathies.

Edited February 6, 2022 by gehringer_2