chasfh Posted November 1, 2021 Author Share Posted November 1, 2021 Yes, what about Whitmer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 It seems the cycles are roughly six months, and and peaks are dependent upon the vax rate and precautions in the area as well as other factors. Things in Michigan are nowhere near as bad as Florida was in the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 1 hour ago, ewsieg said: You're just talking March/April of 2020? Florida gets no pass on their first spike which happened in the summer of 2020 because apparently the world knew how to handle this by then? Yet Michigan's biggest spike didn't come until the winter of 2020/2021? Whitmer just decide not to follow the all to well known protocols for some reason? pre vs. post vx, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, pfife said: pre vs. post vx, no? I agree that is a good number to look at, but it just seems like you guys move the goal posts whenever it fits. Me: Why isn't Whitmer putting additional restrictions back in place? (Circa 2 months ago) Board: The GOP stripped her powers. Me: Why isn't Whitmer putting additional restrictions back in place? (After getting some folks to admit she has some power still) Board: We got hit so hard early, combined with her great effort to get folks vaccinated, we really don't need anything additional. Whitmer: (after numbers rise again) We did such a great job so early in this pandemic to stop the spread of this disease, it just left us with a very small percentage of the population with antibodies, so this was to be expected. Board: Ya, know, she's right. 3 hours ago, Edman85 said: It seems the cycles are roughly six months, and and peaks are dependent upon the vax rate and precautions in the area as well as other factors. Things in Michigan are nowhere near as bad as Florida was in the summer. Florida has better vaccination rates than Michigan. When looking at vax rate alone, Florida is a major outlier in terms of deaths with this last recent surge. This board has assured me, despite my objections, that any precautions Whitmer wants to do, she simply can't. She has absolutely no power, whatsoever, to impose any restrictions since last year. So exactly what is different between Florida and Michigan right now, except that based on the short time frame we know about Covid, seems to hit the southern states in the summer and winter, vs midwest/northeast where it hits fall and spring. Right now, when looking at that alone, is that Michigan is experiencing a smaller surge much earlier than we did last year. I do get, if the entire GOP was behind this vaccine from the beginning, overall we'd all be better off. I'm not trying to play both sides here. I am simply objecting to anyone saying that every death associated with this disease is solely on one governor, one president, etc. Edited November 1, 2021 by ewsieg 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 Didn’t Florida make it illegal to mandate masks at the local level and to require vaccinated patrons? Michigan didn’t do that. The state numbers correlate to vax rate and mask mandates in schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 41 minutes ago, ewsieg said: I agree that is a good number to look at, but it just seems like you guys move the goal posts whenever it fits. Me: Why isn't Whitmer putting additional restrictions back in place? (Circa 2 months ago) Board: The GOP stripped her powers. Me: Why isn't Whitmer putting additional restrictions back in place? (After getting some folks to admit she has some power still) Board: We got hit so hard early, combined with her great effort to get folks vaccinated, we really don't need anything additional. Whitmer: (after numbers rise again) We did such a great job so early in this pandemic to stop the spread of this disease, it just left us with a very small percentage of the population with antibodies, so this was to be expected. Board: Ya, know, she's right. Florida has better vaccination rates than Michigan. When looking at vax rate alone, Florida is a major outlier in terms of deaths with this last recent surge. This board has assured me, despite my objections, that any precautions Whitmer wants to do, she simply can't. She has absolutely no power, whatsoever, to impose any restrictions since last year. So exactly what is different between Florida and Michigan right now, except that based on the short time frame we know about Covid, seems to hit the southern states in the summer and winter, vs midwest/northeast where it hits fall and spring. Right now, when looking at that alone, is that Michigan is experiencing a smaller surge much earlier than we did last year. I do get, if the entire GOP was behind this vaccine from the beginning, overall we'd all be better off. I'm not trying to play both sides here. I am simply objecting to anyone saying that every death associated with this disease is solely on one governor, one president, etc. I was gone for a week and I come back to see this excellent comment. I couldn't agree more. Instead of fixing the blame lets fix the problem. I wonder how much of the Florida spread has to do with not just population but more populated areas like Miami, Orlando, Tampa, ect. Michigan has Detroit and Grand Rapids and neither are that big. Florida also has a lot of outstate visitors that might be bringing covid with them. The vaccine has proven it won't stop covid so maybe the best bet will be some of the treatments being developed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 20 minutes ago, oblong said: Didn’t Florida make it illegal to mandate masks at the local level and to require vaccinated patrons? Michigan didn’t do that. The state numbers correlate to vax rate and mask mandates in schools. Yup, and still, more than 50% of their kids are wearing masks in school, same as Michigan. Cities in Florida defied orders and demanded mask mandates as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 lol @ "the vaccine has proven it won't stop covid." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 5 minutes ago, Archie said: The vaccine has proven it won't stop covid so maybe the best bet will be some of the treatments being developed. Let's not get crazy, the vaccine has proven to be the best option available in terms of limiting Covid. There is nothing else even close to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 5 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: no, because what was happening right at the beginning had nothing to do with what any government or local population was consciously doing because no-one knew what they were doing. The death/incidence rates early on had to do almost completely with how international travel patterns first distributed the virus around the country and where it first found dense low health populations. NYC apparently hit because of connections to Italy (don't remember why Italy was one of the first hit but it was...) and Detroit apparently because of auto industry connections to Wuhan. Italy also had direct connections to Wuhan. That's why Italy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 25 minutes ago, ewsieg said: Let's not get crazy, the vaccine has proven to be the best option available in terms of limiting Covid. There is nothing else even close to it. Yep, it is the best option. Unfortunately there a some breakthrough cases and deaths. I forget who the pharma companies are but there are a couple treaments being developed that look promising. I think one might have been submitted for approval recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 1 minute ago, Archie said: Yep, it is the best option. Unfortunately there a some breakthrough cases and deaths. I forget who the pharma companies are but there are a couple treaments being developed that look promising. I think one might have been submitted for approval recently. One of the patterns with anti-virals is that they often have to be administered so early in the course of the infection that the patient is not yet aware they are infected. That can limit their practical usefulness, esp for drugs that require a prescription which means contacting or visiting a doctor or clinic. This new Merck product is described as effective given 'within 5 days of infection'. Hopefully that is a big enough window for people to get effective use of it - assuming it's approved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: One of the patterns with anti-virals is that they often have to be administered so early in the course of the infection that the patient is not yet aware they are infected. That can limit their practical usefulness, esp for drugs that require a prescription which means contacting or visiting a doctor or clinic. This new Merck product is described as effective given 'within 5 days of infection'. Hopefully that is a big enough window for people to get effective use of it - assuming it's approved. Part of that problem is a lot doctors don't want you in their office if you have covid. I feel people are more hesitant to go to a hospital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, ewsieg said: I agree that is a good number to look at, but it just seems like you guys move the goal posts whenever it fits. Me: Why isn't Whitmer putting additional restrictions back in place? (Circa 2 months ago) Board: The GOP stripped her powers. Me: Why isn't Whitmer putting additional restrictions back in place? (After getting some folks to admit she has some power still) Board: We got hit so hard early, combined with her great effort to get folks vaccinated, we really don't need anything additional. Whitmer: (after numbers rise again) We did such a great job so early in this pandemic to stop the spread of this disease, it just left us with a very small percentage of the population with antibodies, so this was to be expected. Board: Ya, know, she's right. We're not moving the goalposts. We're just saying that having high numbers b/c you shit on masks & vaccines isn't the same has high having high numbers b/c you didn't have vaccines. If you want to continue making fact-free comparisons, have at it, just don't think the rest of us are going to buy the shit sammich you're serving up here. Edited November 1, 2021 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 27 minutes ago, pfife said: We're not moving the goalposts. We're just saying that having high numbers b/c you shit on masks & vaccines isn't the same has high having high numbers b/c you didn't have vaccines. If you want to continue making fact-free comparisons, have at it, just don't think the rest of us are going to buy the shit sammich you're serving up here. fact free comparisons? You guys are the ones that look a the Florida numbers and then shit on DeSantis without even looking at the vaccine rates for that state. You can't look at the vaccine rates because it doesn't support your argument. He's been an absolute idiot on masks, i'll give you that. So obviously you look at these recent covid numbers alone and it allows you to validate your thoughts without diving into the data deeper. He actually was very pro-vaccine, especially early on. I know he's fighting against mandates, but his message has still advocated for vaccines. And don't get me wrong, I disagree with him on his stance. But I'm just not seeing the black/white divide in deaths between Florida and some of these other states that everyone on this board says 'did it right', at least overall. If over the next few months Covid is nothing but a blip on the midwest/northeast states, then I think you'd have the evidence you claim you already have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, ewsieg said: fact free comparisons? You guys are the ones that look a the Florida numbers and then shit on DeSantis without even looking at the vaccine rates for that state. You can't look at the vaccine rates because it doesn't support your argument. He's been an absolute idiot on masks, i'll give you that. So obviously you look at these recent covid numbers alone and it allows you to validate your thoughts without diving into the data deeper. He actually was very pro-vaccine, especially early on. I know he's fighting against mandates, but his message has still advocated for vaccines. And don't get me wrong, I disagree with him on his stance. But I'm just not seeing the black/white divide in deaths between Florida and some of these other states that everyone on this board says 'did it right', at least overall. If over the next few months Covid is nothing but a blip on the midwest/northeast states, then I think you'd have the evidence you claim you already have. Yes, you are engaging in fact free comparisons. You want us to buy your comparison and disregard the facts around each situation that make the comparisons tenuous at best. When we do this completely logical and reasonable thing, you claim it's goalpost moving, which it's not. It's quite obviously critiquing the robustness of your comparison. Regarding DeSantis, after all of that stuff you said where you agreed with what we're saying after you accused us of moving the goalposts you now say you agree with, he says and does stuff. Are you arguing his words and actions don't impact Vx rates negatively? Are you arguing fighting mandates doesn't impact Vx rates negatively? You have a high standard for other people to bring data, are you familiar with how mandates impact Vx rates positively? You say you disagree with his approach, but also seem to be arguing that his approach doesn't impact results. I'm merely arguing that his approach does impact results, and I suspect you also believe it does and that's why you disagree with his approach. Edited November 1, 2021 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) Quote There has been no more controversial COVID-19 pandemic theory than herd immunity through “natural infection,” the idea that lifting all coronavirus restrictions and letting the virus run through the lower-risk under-60 population is the best way for people to become immune. Gov. Ron DeSantis hasn’t openly espoused it, but almost all of his actions over the past year, including pushing for Florida to be “open” and dismissing local mask mandates, could be considered in alignment with the theory. https://www.orlandosentinel.com/politics/os-ne-prem-ne-desantis-herd-immunity-20210325-bzsp4mnst5blddfotmtsp2ma4i-story.html Imagine if he hadn't done this. That's exactly the problem - tons of dumb decisions when we knew it wasn't the right decision. That he's indistinguishable from Whitmer's record, to the extent that's true, who didn't even have Vx in multiple spikes our state experienced, not to mention a very very early spike in the US, isn't indicative of a good job, it's indicative of a bad job. A really bad job. Facts matter. Edited November 1, 2021 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) It is also weird to me that the dude who's spent the past year or so trashing Whitmer now uses her as a comparison point for someone who's apparently doing a job he approves of. Talk about moving goalposts. I report, you decide. Edited November 1, 2021 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 6 minutes ago, pfife said: https://www.orlandosentinel.com/politics/os-ne-prem-ne-desantis-herd-immunity-20210325-bzsp4mnst5blddfotmtsp2ma4i-story.html Imagine if he hadn't done this. That's exactly the problem - tons of dumb decisions when we knew it wasn't the right decision. That he's indistinguishable from Whitmer's record, who didn't even have Vx in multiple spikes our state experienced, not to mention a very very early spike in the US, isn't indicative of a good job, it's indicative of a bad job. A really bad job. Facts matter. If his plan was simply natural herd immunity, and his voice carries as much weight as you claim, why does Florida have a better vaccination rate than Michigan? And correct me if i'm wrong, but my understanding is the better the vaccination rate of a population, the better that population will be in regards to Covid. So based on that alone, how is Michigan better off than Florida at this exact moment in time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, ewsieg said: If his plan was simply natural herd immunity, and his voice carries as much weight as you claim, why does Florida have a better vaccination rate than Michigan? And correct me if i'm wrong, but my understanding is the better the vaccination rate of a population, the better that population will be in regards to Covid. So based on that alone, how is Michigan better off than Florida at this exact moment in time? Again, if he hadn't argued that, he'd be clearly better than Michigan and that's exactly the reason he sucks, because he made choices that worsened his state's situation. You know, it's the choices you said you don't agree with out of the other side of your mouth. Edited November 1, 2021 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) eswieg principle: every state with a higher vx rate than whitmer has a kick ass governor and don't you dare consider anything else whatosever or else that's moving goalposts Edited November 1, 2021 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 also eswieg principle: E disagrees with stuff desantis did, others disagree with stuff desantis did, others moving goalposts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 13 minutes ago, pfife said: also eswieg principle: E disagrees with stuff desantis did, others disagree with stuff desantis did, others moving goalposts. I just don't get how he's the epitomy/cause of every Covid death in Florida and if he would have only done it 'right' apparently there wouldn't have been hardly anyone in Florida that would have died in Florida. Meanwhile, many states that did it 'right' have similar deaths per capita. Now add in the vaccination rates and he compares well (and better in some instances) to those states that did it 'right'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, ewsieg said: I just don't get how he's the epitomy/cause of every Covid death in Florida and if he would have only done it 'right' apparently there wouldn't have been hardly anyone in Florida that would have died in Florida. Meanwhile, many states that did it 'right' have similar deaths per capita. Now add in the vaccination rates and he compares well (and better in some instances) to those states that did it 'right'. you should ask yourself some clarifying questions about how he's the epitomy/cause of every covid death in florida and if he would have only done it 'right' apparently there wouldn't have been hardly anyone in Florida that would have died in Florida because you're the one saying it. You say he compares well on vaccination rates. I think he compares shitty b/c he could have compared much better by governing better in obvious ways. I'm not sure why you keep fighting that obvious point b/c you already agreed that he did things you didn't agree with, which probably means you're just likes to fight on the internet with people guy. You seem to think Vx rates are the goal, I think lives not lost is the goal. I think he failed b/c a lot of lives were lost unnecessarily under his regime, due in part to his governing. Edited November 1, 2021 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) I'm not sure why it's even a point to compare with Whitmer. I mean, short of having a complete complex with trashing her, I don't even get the point. Is DeSantis's goal to just be comparable to Whitmer? Is your goal for a politician to be comparable to Whitmer? Not only comparable to Whitmer, but comparable to Whitmer only using comparisons where all context are removed from the comparison thus rendering it not reflective of reality? You can't look at DeSantis's actions on their own and think wow he kinda screwed the pooch? Edited November 1, 2021 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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