gehringer_2 Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) 50 minutes ago, oblong said: Graham's about as good as you can get for the big name ones. The knock against him is his lack of pushback against Nixon when he was making racial and antisemetic comments on tape. Other than that I can't think of anything really controversial. I can say that many in the fundamentalist evangelical circle actually didn't like him because they thought he was too accommodating to other Christian denominations. I recall an interview on King where Larry was pressing him on whether Jews and Hindus and others would go to hell because they didn't believe like Christians do. Graham wouldn't say they would, only that his religion teaches him that he will go to Heaven. Looking back from today's perspective, Graham's work against the election of JFK out of fear that electing a Catholic would deliver the presidency to the Pope seems hopelessly Quixotic. Graham later in life did say he had regrets about his involvement with politics and political figures. But whether you think someone's theology is broken and whether you think they are a grifter are separate questions at different levels. And it can go the other way as well. Just because a guy is a grifter doesn't mean he can't preach anything that has some truth. It's being able to get close enough to what people will recognize as some piece of the truth that is what makes the grift work. Edited June 8, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 12 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Looking back from today's perspective, Graham's work against the election of JFK out of fear that electing a Catholic would deliver the presidency to the Pope seems hopelessly Quixotic. Graham later in life did say he had regrets about his involvement with politics and political figures. But whether you think someone's theology is broken and whether you think they are a grifter are separate questions at different levels. And it can go the other way as well. Just because a guy is a grifter doesn't mean he can't preach anything that has some truth. It's being able to get close enough to what people will recognize as some piece of the truth that is what makes the grift work. MLK Sr did the same thing until RFK called Coretta Scott King after Jr got arrested in 1960. Unfortunately anti catholic bias among protestants was acceptable back then. When JFK spoke before Baptist preachers in Texas LBJ told the staff to make sure the "meanest" looking preachers were up front and within view of the TV camera. He wanted the nation to see them nodding along to JFK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 I grew up thinking that there was a pecking order of Christian religions. Greek Orthodox was #1. The Catholics were #2 and the Protestants were #3. When I got older I was then surprised to find out that Protestants thought they were better than everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 8 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I grew up thinking that there was a pecking order of Christian religions. Greek Orthodox was #1. The Catholics were #2 and the Protestants were #3. When I got older I was then surprised to find out that Protestants thought they were better than everyone else. I always was the only protestant kid on my block in Livonia. I would be asked if i was going to first communion or catechism or whatever other Catholic thing and when i said I wasn't i felt left out and the other kids would ask me why i didn't believe in God. Meanwhile, the same stuff probably played out in the bible belt in reverse. Stuff like that is annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 2 minutes ago, romad1 said: I always was the only protestant kid on my block in Livonia. I would be asked if i was going to first communion or catechism or whatever other Catholic thing and when i said I wasn't i felt left out and the other kids would ask me why i didn't believe in God. Meanwhile, the same stuff probably played out in the bible belt in reverse. Stuff like that is annoying. absolutely. Fundamentalists don't think Catholics are legit Christians because of Mary or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 4 minutes ago, oblong said: absolutely. Fundamentalists don't think Catholics are legit Christians because of Mary or something. Biggest thing I always didn't understand about the Catholics were the Deuterocanonical books of bible. That and praying to Mary like she is a God or God's secretary? That always seemed off as I was not raised Catholic, but to each there own and I respect that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 3 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: Biggest thing I always didn't understand about the Catholics were the Deuterocanonical books of bible. That and praying to Mary like she is a God or God's secretary? That always seemed off as I was not raised Catholic, but to each there own and I respect that. I'm not Catholic but my wife is... I am a little uneasy or skeptical of the reliance on praying to saints and others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, oblong said: I'm not Catholic but my wife is... I am a little uneasy or skeptical of the reliance on praying to saints and others. it was a point of contention between people in my church growing up. My Dad got back into his episcopalian faith for a while in some very "high church" group that had incense and robes and all the magic tricks. He's back with a very small methodist group now appear to be very normal except they wonder why no kids want to join their church. Edited June 8, 2023 by romad1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 5 minutes ago, oblong said: I'm not Catholic but my wife is... I am a little uneasy or skeptical of the reliance on praying to saints and others. I was just reading this to understand some of the differences. It comes down the Council of Trent which was left open ended as in TBD but was never revisted. Kind of fascinating.... https://textandcanon.org/why-the-catholic-bible-has-more-books-than-the-protestant-bible/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I grew up thinking that there was a pecking order of Christian religions. Greek Orthodox was #1. While never Orthodox by choice or practice, I was born into it, which left me with sort or a positive disposition about it just because of it's history and persistence. But the abject failures of the Orthodox churches in Russia and the ex-Yugoslavia just go to prove no matter what its roots, any institution anywhere can go seriously wrong. Edited June 8, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) 30 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: While never Orthodox by choice or practice, I was born into it, which left me with sort or a positive disposition about it just because of it's history and persistence. But the abject failures of the Orthodox churches in Russia and the ex-Yugoslavia just go to prove no matter what its roots, any institution anywhere can go seriously wrong. The part of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy where Irina marvels at the Christians she saw being interrogated always got to me. It was really where my faith lies. I'm paraphrasing her line "you see people at their worst and sometimes at their best" If you can use your faith as a shield against evil --not the petty bs sins of the bible thumpers -- but true evil where people are degraded and made to suffer. That is an effective faith. and let me tell you my faith has suffered since 2015. Edited June 8, 2023 by romad1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 45 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: While never Orthodox by choice or practice, I was born into it, which left me with sort or a positive disposition about it just because of it's history and persistence. But the abject failures of the Orthodox churches in Russia and the ex-Yugoslavia just go to prove no matter what its roots, any institution anywhere can go seriously wrong. I was also never a practicing Orthodox or Catholic. I was born into both of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 51 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: I was just reading this to understand some of the differences. It comes down the Council of Trent which was left open ended as in TBD but was never revisted. Kind of fascinating.... https://textandcanon.org/why-the-catholic-bible-has-more-books-than-the-protestant-bible/ There has been a lot of back and forth at various councils since, but for practical purposes, for the Western Churches most canon was set under Augustine's leadership in the 4th century. The big change after that came when the Protestant movement switched their choice of OT authority from the Septuagint (Greek) to the Masoretic Text (Hebrew) - (KJV reflects this) . For the Protestants reformers, this helped remove authority for some RCC doctrines they didn't like that were supported in the Duetorecanon/Apochrypha since those book are not in the Masoretic Canon . The Protestant reformers may have also viewed the Masoretic text as more 'authentic' than the Septuagint (the Greek OT which contains the Dueterocanon). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 17 hours ago, oblong said: I'm not Catholic but my wife is... I am a little uneasy or skeptical of the reliance on praying to saints and others. St. Patrick, patron saint of green beer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 this will not fly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Cat Gentleman Posted June 10, 2023 Share Posted June 10, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 10, 2023 Share Posted June 10, 2023 There are 4.3 million NRA members. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smr-nj Posted June 10, 2023 Share Posted June 10, 2023 29 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Gentleman said: No.. that’s not a PSA, …. that is a threat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted June 10, 2023 Share Posted June 10, 2023 13 hours ago, romad1 said: this will not fly Well, I'm glad Twitter is fact checking stuff like this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted June 10, 2023 Share Posted June 10, 2023 1 hour ago, Tiger337 said: There are 4.3 million NRA members. and not all of them are nutters who want to die for Trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted June 10, 2023 Share Posted June 10, 2023 (edited) oh https://twitter.com/patriottakes/status/1667596386383314944?s=46&t=76Y1aNflZsD8yrwQrvLC2g Edited June 10, 2023 by romad1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 11, 2023 Share Posted June 11, 2023 The owner of Twitter apparently thinks that we have to hand it the Unabomber. Checks out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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