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Cleanup in Aisle Lunatic (h/t romad1)


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4 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said:

Speaking of lunatics, this dude takes the prize.   I'm quickly warming up to the idea some have floated about sending US forces into Mexico to destroy the Cartels.  

 

 

Big pharma is run by the mexican drug lords?

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10 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Big pharma is run by the mexican drug lords?

Right, it all started with big pharma and physicians way over prescibing opioids.  They got everyone addicted and that created a huge market.  If the Mexican cartels get defeated, then people in the US will step in and profit from the addiction and you can bet that big pharma will be right there.  That doesn't mean they shouldn't try to stop the cartels from getting drugs up here.  It just means that it won't solve the crisis.  

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11 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said:

How is  big pharma going to "be right there"?   The days of doctors writing prescriptions for opioids to anyone who wants them are long over.   Also, the opioid crisis started in the mid 90's, I can assure you that people were using and addicted to drugs long before they could get their fix from a crooked doctor.  

But it wasn't as easy or pervasive.  You didn't have people with common back injuries suddenly develop crippling addictions that often ended their lives.   

The opioid crisis didn't act to serve a need that was already there, it created a problem that didn't exist.  Pain management became a market for drug addiction to flourish and all the perils that came with it, not the other way around.  Many many lives were ruined that didn't have to happen because of that crisis. The victims weren't already out there looking for scores.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said:

How is  big pharma going to "be right there"?   The days of doctors writing prescriptions for opioids to anyone who wants them are long over.   Also, the opioid crisis started in the mid 90's, I can assure you that people were using and addicted to drugs long before they could get their fix from a crooked doctor.  

Are those days over? I had a small cyst removed a few years ago and turned down an Oxy prescription, just using Asprin instead.

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46 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said:

  Also, the opioid crisis started in the mid 90's, I can assure you that people were using and addicted to drugs long before they could get their fix from a crooked doctor.  

Thanks for assuring me, but my group at work has been researching the opioid crisis since the beginning.  We knew from the prescription drug data that there was going to be a crisis before it became a crisis.  There has always been people addicted to drugs.  What is unique about the opioid crisis is that it has affected middle class whites more than any other crisis which is the main reason it's considered a crisis.  That was a result of doctors over prescribing and not just crooked ones.  I was prescribed opioids unnecessarily on a couple of occasions and I refused each time.   The fact is there are millions of people addicted now and this has created a a huge market.  If it's not Mexican cartels, then it will be Americans - whether it will de-regulated big pharma or American drug dealing gangs or whatever.  At this point, the best way to stop the crisis is treatment.   

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1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

Right, it all started with big pharma and physicians way over prescibing opioids.  They got everyone addicted and that created a huge market.  If the Mexican cartels get defeated, then people in the US will step in and profit from the addiction and you can bet that big pharma will be right there.  That doesn't mean they shouldn't try to stop the cartels from getting drugs up here.  It just means that it won't solve the crisis.  

The Sacklers put out Oxy under the advertised notion that it was not addictive.   They got special FDA language that had never before been put on an opioid that their sales representatives then used as a piece of evidence to persuade doctors to prescribe the non-addictive opioids according to the FDA.   Coincidentally, I'm sure, but the individual at the FDA that approved the language then went to work for Perdue shortly after.

From my understanding of the events the marketing preceded the prescribing.   

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37 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said:

You could have a treatment center on every corner in the country and there would still be a demand for illegal drugs.  Since you're so informed on the topic, surely you know that only 25% of illicit drug users suffer from dependency or addiction.  That leaves a whole lot of people who are just doing illegal drugs for the occasional good time.   

Treatment certainly has a role to play but you also need to choke off the supply as well.  Of course taking out the cartels would just shift production to facilities in the USA but it's a lot easier to target a drug operation in your own backyard than it is one in the jungles of Central America.  

The U.S. producers have basically stopped the flow of perscription drugs getting onto the street. Yeah you might have jimmy getting into Grandmas 30 pack of Oxy but outside of that the spicket is basically closed. Everything comes from China and is smuggled through Mexico and accross the border or in sea containers at ports.

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42 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said:

You could have a treatment center on every corner in the country and there would still be a demand for illegal drugs.  Since you're so informed on the topic, surely you know that only 25% of illicit drug users suffer from dependency or addiction.  That leaves a whole lot of people who are just doing illegal drugs for the occasional good time.   

Treatment certainly has a role to play but you also need to choke off the supply as well.  Of course taking out the cartels would just shift production to facilities in the USA but it's a lot easier to target a drug operation in your own backyard than it is one in the jungles of Central America.  

Some treatment centers work a lot better than others, but I agree that treatment can be done in conjunction with cutting off supply.   

 

 

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I also do no want to disregard the part that China and Mexican baddies have played and continue to play.  China loves this.  If you follow any real ardent Chinese nationalist you will quickly hear all about the Opium trade and the resulting societal chaos caused by that (Opium Wars, the Boxer Rebellion).   That was the big bad thing that the Western powers did to China.  

 

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2 hours ago, GoBlue23 said:

....   Treatment certainly has a role to play but you also need to choke off the supply as well.  Of course taking out the cartels would just shift production to facilities in the USA but it's a lot easier to target a drug operation in your own backyard than it is one in the jungles of Central America.  

If there is a demand...

Supply will find a way. You just noted that above as well. (I get the point about shifting the supply closer to home and it's easier to target... but I don't think stopping cartels will stop China's flow of Fentanyl into America, at all. They'll find another way.)

Eliminate or sharply reduce the demand and...

The supply will automatically follow suit and fall.

It's called "supply and demand", which I am sure you know...

 

 

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55 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Coworker is the most boringingest man on the entire planet of Earth to quote “Archer” and he told me that if he could get some of the fentanyl he had after a surgery he would in a second.  

If Opioids had no side effects, most of the world would be using them regularly based on how they make you feel.  

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No one is using Opioids for an occasional good time like folks do with other recreational drugs.  The medical world has recognized the error of its ways and shut off easy access, which for folks dealing with medical issues now, is a great thing as Opioids are great for short term use and shown not to be an issue if only used for short term use.

For folks already addicted to them, that's where the rise of heroin use came into play as well as counterfeit drugs.  Kind of a tangent, but related, I have wondered in areas that have approved marijuana sales, will that help fight the opioid addiction.  Granted in my older years I didn't use drugs, but out of high school, yeah I 'knew a guy' that myself and a few buddies would get some weed off of.  If anyone wanted to try something different, that would be the logical guy to go to.  For Michigan, I definitely wonder/hope, that legalizing weed will simply put folks out of touch with someone that can easily score an opioid for them, pushing them to 'settle' for weed.  

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1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

This is why people need to start smoking weed. 

Man...Michigan is basically 30 miles of weed billboards continuously until you hit metro Detroit and then they are just every other one after that.  With maybe one in 5 billboards for law firms promising to get you out of the driving while impaired charge after that.

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3 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Man...Michigan is basically 30 miles of weed billboards continuously until you hit metro Detroit and then they are just every other one after that.  With maybe one in 5 billboards for law firms promising to get you out of the driving while impaired charge after that.

If i were the Cramblin ad firm...I would do a billboard something something:  "Our weed makes you feel like the roads are better"

Although I have to admit the roads on the way into town are a lot better on this visit than they were last time I drove in back about 6 months ago.

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3 minutes ago, pfife said:

I don't think this is true, unfortunately. 

I guess maybe we need to define 'recreational' first.  I was thinking of a recreational user as maybe someone that uses once a week or less.  Maybe I am wrong, but the biggest issue with Opioids is that taking them a little to long is what leads to dependency, hence someone doing it 'recreationally' a couple times a week is soon not doing it 'recreationally', but is now addicted and needing it on a more consistent basis.

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42 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

It should be true, but it isn't.  Also, a lot of people take it illegally for pain if they can get it.  Also, not a good idea.  

There seems to be a very wide variation is the human phenotype wrt  opioid response. There are enough people who have documented their own ability to simply walk away from it that we can't deny that it is apparently true for some people. But there are probably larger numbers at the other end for whom addition is ultimately a death sentence because their physiological reaction is deep and irreversible.

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