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Cleanup in Aisle Lunatic (h/t romad1)


chasfh

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23 minutes ago, buddha said:

our interpretation of what constitutes the "establishment" of religion would be beyond the scope of how the founders thought of it.

I wouldn't argue that as a general proposition, but I think it still did not encompass 'teaching' Christianity as religion in public schools. I think what I sense changing is that the secular society, sensing its majority status, is now resisting the expression of a common Christian cultural background that did used to be common in places like schools, and to which in the past schools were not resistant - exactly things like holiday displays and such that were milquetoast enough to be non-sectarian and generally accepted in the past. But I  still see that as much different from the educational establishment formulating lessons in what Christian doctrine is. And I think this is a place where evangelicals part company with old mainstream Christians - and part of it is probably due the ever increasing class/cultural segregation in the US. There are enough places today where there is a strong enough local evangelical majority in an entire school or district that they feel comfortable in pushing a local Christian sectarian culture back into schools because they feel the strength of their local majority status even as that may be in oppositions to larger the larger national trends away from sectarian religious practice.

Edited by gehringer_2
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16 minutes ago, romad1 said:

One of my reserved-for-an-angry-day at work albums.  I've always thought that "Untitled" because of the bagpipe sound is when the 11th British Armored Division rolled into Bergen Belsen in the lore of the album being about the Diary of Anne Frank. 

 

 

yeah man the bagpipes tune is the true face melter amongst a collection of slightly less face melters on that record.   It's sooooo good. 

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16 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I wouldn't argue that as a general proposition, but I think it still did not encompass 'teaching' Christianity as religion in public schools. I think what I sense changing is that the secular society, sensing its majority status, is now resisting the expression of a common Christian cultural background that did used to be common in places like schools, and to which in the past schools were not resistant - exactly things like holiday displays and such that were milquetoast enough to be non-sectarian and generally accepted in the past. But I  still see that as much different from the educational establishment formulating lessons in what Christian doctrine is. And I think this is a place where evangelicals part company with old mainstream Christians - and part of it is probably due the ever increasing class/cultural segregation in the US. There are enough places today where there is a strong enough local evangelical majority in an entire school or district that they feel comfortable in pushing a local Christian sectarian culture back into schools because they feel the strength of their local majority status even as that may be in oppositions to larger the larger national trends away from sectarian religious practice.

right, but we've taken the establishment clause to mean you cant put up a cross as a grave marker, or celebrate xmas without having an equal sized display for diwali.  i think that is a misreading of the first amendment.

i also think religion should be taught in all public schools.  a section on world religions would be good for students to learn about 

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53 minutes ago, buddha said:

I also think religion should be taught in all public schools.  a section on world religions would be good for students to learn about 

LOL - good luck with that. I actually took a HS course that did a little 'history of' various world religions but that day is lost in the misty past. Given the checkered history of every world religion and the nature of today's communication system, I can't even imagine a curriculum of any value at all that wouldn't offend *ALL* of  them all if any attempt was made to be historically truthful!

Edited by gehringer_2
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You would need a distinct course on Christianity alone just to explain all the differences within.  Otherwise it’s just very high level stuff you could scrape off a Wikipedia list.  If anything make it a combo of history/geography/religion.  
 

Evangelicals live in a bubble. That’s by design.  And to them it’s all normal. In their defense it’s totally logical to believe what they do because it’s been indoctrinated in them their whole life and they’ve often been sheltered from the world to not know any better. 

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17 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

LOL - good luck with that. I actually took a HS course that did a little 'history of' various world religions but that day is lost in the misty past. Given the checkered history of every world religion and the nature of today's communication system, I can't even imagine a curriculum of any value at all that wouldn't offend *ALL* of  them all if any attempt was made to be historically truthful!

as a catholic school graduate, i thought the theology courses we took were the most interesting ones i ever took.  the bible is full of cool stories.

kids study "world history" in high school, they can study world religion too.  the two really hand in hand.

the idea of god and religion has been one of the driving forces in humanity for its entire existence. its kinda important to know about.

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34 minutes ago, buddha said:

as a catholic school graduate, i thought the theology courses we took were the most interesting ones i ever took.  the bible is full of cool stories.

kids study "world history" in high school, they can study world religion too.  the two really hand in hand.

the idea of god and religion has been one of the driving forces in humanity for its entire existence. its kinda important to know about.

true enough, I just don't see a path to doing it in such a fractious society. You were in a school that took it upon itself to teach exactly what it decided it wanted to teach about religion, the public schools aren't like to have that luxury any time in the near future. Truth is, when they coined 'e pluribus unum', the many were already a lot closer to one than they are today! :classic_laugh:

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6 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

true enough, I just don't see a path to doing it in such a fractious society. You were in a school that took it upon itself to teach exactly what it decided it wanted to teach about religion, the public schools aren't like to have that luxury any time i the near future. When they coined 'e pluribus unum', the many were already a lot closer to one than they are today!

i know it wont happen, i just think it would be valuable.  its too contentious a topic to really be discussed in public schools outside of being touched upon in history classes where it can be viewed as dispassionately as possible.

and like you said, we're a secular society now outside of utah and the deep south.  this board is probably as good an example as any of how northern middle class white people feel about religion, and its usually only addressed here to mock those who believe it and call them stupid. 

edit: white christians and christianity are mocked.  other religions and non-white religious people are not.  

Edited by buddha
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1 hour ago, buddha said:

edit: white christians and christianity are mocked.  other religions and non-white religious people are not

I'd say the Jihadi's received a fair level of mocking on the old board - they just haven't been so topical since we arrived here. But I suppose it's also true that mockery, and to a greater degree satirical mockery, do follow  from familiarity.

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8 hours ago, buddha said:

as a catholic school graduate, i thought the theology courses we took were the most interesting ones i ever took.  the bible is full of cool stories.

As a catholic school graduate, I failed the Church History class. I did OK in the prayer class though, where we were encouraged to "silently reflect with our eyes closed".

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13 hours ago, buddha said:

i know it wont happen, i just think it would be valuable. 

LOL- I just came across this quote today by total random chance:


"The schools have no more important task than to teach rigorous thinking, cautious judgment, and consistent inference; therefore they should leave alone whatever is not suitable for these operations: religion, for example."  F. Nietzsche

🤔:classic_wink:

Edited by gehringer_2
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15 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

LOL- I just came across this quote today by total random chance:


"The schools have no more important task than to teach rigorous thinking, cautious judgment, and consistent inference; therefore they should leave alone whatever is not suitable for these operations: religion, for example."  F. Nietzsche

🤔:classic_wink:

well, we can argue about the value of listening to nietzsche if you want to go down that road...

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