chasfh Posted June 13, 2022 Author Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, chasfh said: Benjamin Ginsburg, Republican Elections Attorney. Very direct, confident, and adamant that all Trump claims were baseless. Clearly he must be a globalist agent of the deep state. 😏 Ginsburg just basically said on CNN that we have to hold Trump and his campaign accountable, not for the fraud, apparently, but basically for not accepting the decision of the courts and for trying to prevent the peaceful transfer of power. But Ginsburg also believes that the consequence should be, not an indictment and a conviction in any court of law, but some realization about “their role in history” and how they’re absolutely “torched” about it, and then Congress should “take a look” at legislation to “ensure nothing like this happens again”. So, basically, according to Ginsburg, any penalty for Trump should not happen now, but in some undefined future, and not anything in real terms, but something in ethereal terms, and presumably only after he’s dead and won’t be around to give a shit about any of this anymore. For the good of the country, I presume? Edited June 13, 2022 by chasfh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 minute ago, CMRivdogs said: I'm old enough to get briefly sucked in by the Columbia Record Club and Book of the Month clubs. at least you really did get the music you paid your money for, that's more than anyone ever got from Trump. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 I'm confused why the Democrats didn't just steal the election in Florida? This way, you only had to steal one state instead of 2 or three like Georgia and Arizona. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, chasfh said: Ginsburg just basically said on CNN that we have to hold Trump and his campaign accountable, not for the fraud, apparently, but basically for not accepting the decision of the courts and for trying to prevent the peaceful transfer of power. But Ginsburg also believes the consequence should be, not an indictment and a conviction in any court of law, but for some realization about “their role in history” and how they’re absolutely “torched” about it, and then Congress should “take a look” at legislation to “ensure nothing like this happens again”. So, basically, according to Ginsburg, any penalty for Trump should not happen now, but in some undefined future, presumably after he’s dead and won’t be around to give a shit about any of this anymore. For the good of the country, I presume? Not enough. It's not that he 'didn't accept' the results, it's that he actively used lies and deception to try to motivate a rejection of the results, by force if he could swing it if not by abuse of the courts and media if he couldn't. That's a damn site more than 'not accepting' and needs a lot more sanction than a harsh judgment by history. Edited June 13, 2022 by gehringer_2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 13, 2022 Author Share Posted June 13, 2022 8 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said: TV ministers have been doing it for years. Before that itinerate "snake oil" salesmen. Not to mention politicians. Poor and desperate people fall for these scams, the ones we think know better and just riding his coat tails for the power and money. Exactly why some people don't want critical thinking taught in schools. Or even money management. This is not unlike the same psychology that leads to poor people playing the numbers, or scratch-offs, or convenience store slot machines, or those machines that look like they’re gonna slide a whole bunch of quarters to you if you put in just one more. Just risk a little money and you could hit it big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 13, 2022 Author Share Posted June 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Not enough. It's not that he 'didn't accept' the results, it's that he actively used lies and deception to try to motivate a rejection of the results, by force if he could swing it if not by abuse of the courts and media if he couldn't. That's a damn site more than 'not accepting' and needs a lot more sanction than a harsh judgment by history. It looks for all the world that Ginsburg is hedging his bets that Trump might come out of this a winner, and he wants to reduce his sentence for treason when Trump does win. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 15 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said: TV ministers have been doing it for years. Before that itinerate "snake oil" salesmen. Not to mention politicians. Poor and desperate people fall for these scams, the ones we think know better and just riding his coat tails for the power and money. Exactly why some people don't want critical thinking taught in schools. Or even money management. "Bless your heart..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Just now, gehringer_2 said: Not enough. It's not that he 'didn't accept' the results, it's that he used lies and deception to try to motivate a rejection of the results, by force if he could swing it if not by abuse of the courts and media if he couldn't. That's a damn site more than 'not accepting' and needs a lot more sanction than a harsh judgment by history. He is not going to be indicted and a substantial percentage of Republicans will still believe the election was stolen. I am not sure what I am hoping for realistically - maybe that he becomes upopular enough so that neither he nor anybody in his family can ever come close to winning an election again. If enouh people can see that he is a whack job maybe right wing nut jobs won't be able to win elections so easily in the future. The fear is this whole thing gets forgotten by July like everything else involving Trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 12 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: He is not going to be indicted and a substantial percentage of Republicans will still believe the election was stolen. I am not sure what I am hoping for realistically - maybe that he becomes upopular enough so that neither he nor anybody in his family can ever come close to winning an election again. If enouh people can see that he is a whack job maybe right wing nut jobs won't be able to win elections so easily in the future. The fear is this whole thing gets forgotten by July like everything else involving Trump. Democrats will lose because and there will be no accountability in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 13, 2022 Author Share Posted June 13, 2022 6 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: He is not going to be indicted and a substantial percentage of Republicans will still believe the election was stolen. I am not sure what I am hoping for realistically - maybe that he becomes upopular enough so that neither he nor anybody in his family can ever come close to winning an election again. If enouh people can see that he is a whack job maybe right wing nut jobs won't be able to win elections so easily in the future. The fear is this whole thing gets forgotten by July like everything else involving Trump. I think if they lay out all this evidence and then fail to indict Trump, basically making this whole thing a political stunt, he will become more popular with the red hats than ever, since it will show that he is indeed the most powerful person in the world, bulletproof and unable to be taken down by the woke radical left mob, and that he is the true North Star of the future of the world. It might even radicalize a few current moderate right-of-center conservatives who might look at all this pomp and circumstance, see how nothing actually happened, and conclude that we really do live in a Deep State Democrat tyranny that uses its power to punish their opponents politically. If Trump comes out of this unscathed, it’s not just that democracy would die. It’s also that the very idea of democracy will be completely discredited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 4 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: He is not going to be indicted and a substantial percentage of Republicans will still believe the election was stolen. I am not sure what I am hoping for realistically - maybe that he becomes upopular enough so that neither he nor anybody in his family can ever come close to winning an election again. If enouh people can see that he is a whack job maybe right wing nut jobs won't be able to win elections so easily in the future. The fear is this whole thing gets forgotten by July like everything else involving Trump. "Right Wing Wack Jobs" will just get craftier. Just look at Virginia where the current governor managed to walk a fine line between trying to ignore Trump and embrace his policies without the bluster and vitriol. When you have 40 plus percent of the voting population baked in just because they have an R beside their name it's an uphill battle. Organizing Democratic voters is like herding cats. Republicans are like sheep it just takes a couple of crafty dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Just now, chasfh said: I think if they lay out all this evidence and then fail to indict Trump, basically making this whole thing a political stunt, he will become more popular with the red hats than ever, since it will show that he is indeed the most powerful person in the world, bulletproof and unable to be taken down by the woke radical left mob, and that he is the true North Star of the future of the world. It might even radicalize a few current moderate right-of-center conservatives who might look at all this pomp and circumstance, see how nothing actually happened, and conclude that we really do live in a Deep State Democrat tyranny that uses its power to punish their opponents politically. If Trump comes out of this unscathed, it’s not just that democracy would die. It’s also that the very idea of democracy will be completely discredited. And yet, when the Republicans did that with Benghazi and Hillary, Democrats had their purity test and she lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Indicting him and losing the case in a public prosectution might not be the worst thing. After all, who besides the 12 nuts on that jury still believed OJ was innocent after that trial? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said: Indicting him and losing the case in a public prosectution might not be the worst thing. After all, who besides the 12 nuts on that jury still believed OJ was innocent after that trial? I remember a lot of people celebrating, mostly blacks, when OJ was acquitted. Whether they thought he was truly innocent or not is another matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: And yet, when the Republicans did that with Benghazi and Hillary, Democrats had their purity test and she lost. IDK - do you think Benghazi made any difference to anyone? My take is more that Hillary suffered from her own baggage from the Clinton admin (e.g. sweetheart investment deals with Tyson etc) and her own personality issues than any fallout from the Benghazi hearings in particular. Those struck me as more a matter of preaching to the converted I would think. And she put off the progressive wing for a lot of reasons. But that's just my personal take. Maybe those hearings did get some traction with independents..... Edited June 13, 2022 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: I remember a lot of people celebrating, mostly blacks, when OJ was acquitted. Whether they thought he was truly innocent or not is another matter. true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 13, 2022 Author Share Posted June 13, 2022 (edited) Last night, one of my softball teammates, who occupies some mythical “well-informed middle” on the whole thing (as though anyone well-informed would form no opinion on any of this), said he was unimpressed by the first hearing because he said we didn’t learn anything new. I mentioned how we learned that the violence was all pre-planned, and how Trump pushed the fraud claim even after he knew he had lost, and my teammate said well, we already knew this, didn’t we? What’s new about that? He had me for a minute because, yes, this had all been talked about for the last year and a half, ever since the Capitol attack happened, and it really does seem like old news—until I came to realize that the big difference now is that all this was just Twitter speculation before, whereas now, we have actual sworn testimony to all of this, which carries the imprimatur of legal truth. That’s the big difference. Once I shared this thought with him, he had an “aha” moment about it. Edited June 13, 2022 by chasfh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 20 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Democrats will lose because and there will be no accountability in the end. This is the likely outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 31 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: He is not going to be indicted and a substantial percentage of Republicans will still believe the election was stolen. I am not sure what I am hoping for realistically - maybe that he becomes upopular enough so that neither he nor anybody in his family can ever come close to winning an election again. If enouh people can see that he is a whack job maybe right wing nut jobs won't be able to win elections so easily in the future. The fear is this whole thing gets forgotten by July like everything else involving Trump. I don't have many hopes that much will arise from this, but for reasons of history and knowledge, it is a good thing that they are getting this on the record and giving the public the opportunity to learn from it. And doing so in the most sober way possible. I get that there is a desire for certain political outcomes to arise from this, but the idea that nothing comes of it doesn't mean that the exercise isn't worth it or doesn't make it meaningless. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 minute ago, mtutiger said: I don't have many hopes that much will arise from this, but for reasons of history and knowledge, it is a good thing that they are getting this on the record and giving the public the opportunity to learn from it. And doing so in the most sober way possible. I get that there is a desire for certain political outcomes to arise from this, but the idea that nothing comes of it doesn't mean that the exercise isn't worth it or doesn't make it meaningless. I think nothing will come out of it. The historical political record is important to political historians like some people here, but how many people will care about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Harking back to Watergate for a moment. It really wasn't until John Dean's testimony and more importantly the revelations about the missing 18 minutes on the taping system that the reality of what was happening at the time was significant. If I recall correctly, it really wasn't until the vote of the House Impeachment Committee that reality really didn't set in. Times are different, the two parties are more divided now than in 1974. I'd really like to know what turned so many of what we thought were conservative but not crazy Republicans to the dark side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Just now, Tiger337 said: I think nothing will come out of it. The historical political record is important to political historians like some people here, but how many people will care about that? I'm not a political historian, nor are a lot of my family or friends who may be following this. But people still want to understand what actually happened as opposed to just saying "he's always been a fraud, nothing is gonna happen to him, who cares, nothing matters". And from that knowledge educate future generations on what happened here in order to help future generations avoid the mistakes that we made by electing this clown. Because, while I don't know what comes next, but Trump is gonna die someday... and, along with him, a lot of his influence. And they may have the opportunity to fix a lot of the wrongs we are seeing today. I know this is probably a bit "glass half full" for this board, but being constantly negative all the time accomplishes nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 4 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said: Harking back to Watergate for a moment. It really wasn't until John Dean's testimony and more importantly the revelations about the missing 18 minutes on the taping system that the reality of what was happening at the time was significant. If I recall correctly, it really wasn't until the vote of the House Impeachment Committee that reality really didn't set in. Times are different, the two parties are more divided now than in 1974. I'd really like to know what turned so many of what we thought were conservative but not crazy Republicans to the dark side? Obama. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 1 minute ago, mtutiger said: I know this is probably a bit "glass half full" for this board, but being constantly negative all the time accomplishes nothing. Being positive doesn't accomplish anything either (other than perhaps your mental health!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 Just now, Tiger337 said: Being positive doesn't accomplish anything either (other than perhaps your mental health!) That's pretty important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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