Cleanup in Aisle Lunatic (h/t romad1)

[gehringer_2]

5 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

 

Here, I'll give a Republican solution:

Instead of "reparations", create an "inner city revival" program:

Microlending. It's successful in 3rd world countries. It doesn't cost tax payer dollars. It creates small businesses by the thousands as individual borrowers create these businesses. It injects large amounts of funds into inner cities, creating businesses, wealth, and inner-city economic multipliers as that wealth is further spent... "revival". And if it is for minorities, then it can equally benefit Asians, Blacks, Hispanics.

Right - it is politically possible to direct resources to where they can be part of the solution, but workable political solutions need to be sold (and preferably truly structured!) as win/win. 

[buddha]

2 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I was taught in school during the 90's and 2000's that Columbus was a good dude and he sailed the ocean blue in 1492 on the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria and was apart of the North American discovery. I think an honest teaching of Columbus would teach you that he was a thug, thief, rapist, and murderer. I was also never taught that, beyond the indigenous people, it was actually the Vikings and Nordics who discovered North America and not Columbus. They were in Canada long before Columbus came over. That isn't CRT or teaching through the lens of race, those are just facts about Columbus and who he was. If some people can't handle history that is their problem.

teaching that columbus was a "thug rapist and murderer" is as accurate as teaching that he was a heroic european explorer who was one of a handful of people who set off one of the greatest world turning events in human history.

you can teach them both, i think.

[buddha]

4 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

You can't have nuance with people who barely have high school education and refuse and reject any notion of learning or intellectual stimulation. You also can't have nuance with 70 year old people like my dad whose racism and intolerance have been ingrained in him/them for 55-60+ years. Nuance escapes people like that and some of them just don't have the intellectual heft to think critically or move beyond bumper sticker politics and slogans designed to make them angry and afraid.

What Democrats need to do is frame social issues back to economics, quality of life, and safety and security of the general public. Win people over with bread and butter values about making a fair economy, rewarding hard work with good-wages and an equitable tax code, keeping people safe while ensuring the system of justice is equitable, etc. A melding together of both the Barack Obama, Joe Biden, and Bernie Sanders approaches to politics. The focus on values over specific ideas of Obama, the working-class zeal of a Joe Biden, and the Democrats will always be on your side kind of toughness and fight of a Bernie Sanders. You get the hopeful, optimistic nature of an Obama and Biden blended with the willingness to fightback when you're kicked and tenacity of a Bernie Sanders. There will always be a block of people wo will continue to watch Fox and OAN or read Brietbart and never go along. Let them do what they are going to do and win everyone else in the middle or anyone capable of any level of introspection or critical thought back over.

i think you can teach nuance with anyone.  whether they learn it is up to them.  but how you teach it is up to you.

i prefer to teach it with a fair amount of nuance.

[buddha]

37 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

IIRC back in the 60's we covered Columbus moderately heroicly as an explorer but the point was made that the Spanish killed and enslaved the locals. We also read Frederick Douglass and John Howard Griffin. And this was before the bottom fell out and the while residential exodus began.

i believe this is most likely how almost everyone learns about columbus.

i find it interesting that people now seem to see any sort of conquest in human history as necessarily "bad" or immoral, and the losers in that conquest to be heroic martyrs.  especially if the winners were europeans.

its an interesting shift.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

22 minutes ago, buddha said:

i think you can teach nuance with anyone.  whether they learn it is up to them.  but how you teach it is up to you.

i prefer to teach it with a fair amount of nuance.

Do you think that you can teach nuance to people who believe Hillary Clinton was running a sex ring out of a pizza shop and think that Obama is a Muslim?

[buddha]

13 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Do you think that you can teach nuance to people who believe Hillary Clinton was running a sex ring out of a pizza shop and think that Obama is a Muslim?

yeah, sure.

people think crazy things, that doesnt mean you stop trying to teach their kids in the best, most effective way you know how.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

6 minutes ago, buddha said:

yeah, sure.

people think crazy things, that doesnt mean you stop trying to teach their kids in the best, most effective way you know how.

If you are the child of one of these people who believes 5G technology is in the vaccine or that Bill Clinton had Vince Foster clipped, how do you go to school and learn one thing from your Teacher about a given subject matter and then come home and have your whackjob parent tell you that's all a lie and completely untrue. How is nuance supposed to be break through andunderstood by that child when the parent is incapable and/or unwilling to have any or understand it themselves and is undermining everything the kid learns that day in school? With some of these people on the right (and yeah a few on the left, but mostly on the right) you can show them 1+1 = 2 every which way possible, but if they lack the intellectual heft to comprehend what you are teaching them or are so dense they refuse to listen and pay attention, it seems like a hopeless cause.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Mr.TaterSalad

[buddha]

18 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

If you are the child of one of these people who believes 5G technology is in the vaccine or that Bill Clinton had Vince Foster clipped, how do you go to school and learn one thing from your Teacher about a given subject matter and then come home and have your whackjob parent tell you that's all a lie and completely untrue. How is nuance supposed to be break through andunderstood by that child when the parent is incapable and/or unwilling to have any or understand it themselves and is undermining everything the kid learns that day in school? With some of these people on the right (and yeah a few on the left, but mostly on the right) you can show them 1+1 = 2 every which way possible, but if they lack the intellectual heft to comprehend what you are teaching them or are so dense they refuse to listen and pay attention, it seems like a hopeless cause.

 

there are people all over the map who are going to believe in conspiracies and all sorts of stuff.  but again, that doesnt mean you stop trying to teach them the best way you know how.

i'm not sure how this is remotely controversial.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

i believe this is most likely how almost everyone learns about columbus.

i find it interesting that people now seem to see any sort of conquest in human history as necessarily "bad" or immoral, and the losers in that conquest to be heroic martyrs.  especially if the winners were europeans.

its an interesting shift.

From the engineering perspective (  ) one can only come to the conclusion that regardless of the morality of it, all technologically inferior societies are doomed when they come into contact with a more advanced one. Every human on the planet wants life to be easier and that means harnessing energy and matter to do what you want, and that is technology. And of course not only are advanced technologies more desired in general, but they also provide their holders with the economic, organizational and force projection capabilities to get their way. Those facts transcend anything else in the way of sociological or moral factors. 

Probably one of the things we don't teach enough of is CTT (Critical Technology Theory), because of course engineers aren't interested in writing history and the average historian (Philip Morrison excluded) doesn't understand technology.

Edited November 8, 2021 by gehringer_2

[CMRivdogs]

It’s been a long time since I’ve had a kid in school, but it’s been my observation at least thru Jr High the kids are mostly going to pick up their political/racial thinking from their parents.

Probably true about high school as well since nobody teaches critical thinking anymore. And if they do they are probably in deep do do 

[buddha]

22 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

From the engineering perspective (  ) one can only come to the conclusion that regardless of the morality of it, all technologically inferior societies are doomed when they come into contact with a more advanced one. Every human on the planet wants life to be easier and that means harnessing energy and matter to do what you want, and that is technology. And of course not only are advanced technologies more desired in general, but they also provide their holders with the economic, organizational and force projection capabilities to get their way. Those facts transcend anything else in the way of sociological or moral factors. 

Probably one of the things we don't teach enough of is CTT (Critical Technology Theory), because of course engineers aren't interested in writing history and the average historian (Philip Morrison excluded) doesn't understand technology.

but that's always been the case (more or less, i would quibble that technology is brought into it and maybe too much.  disease is just as important and not discussed as much.  luck too).

in fact, i would argue that the native people in many respects adapted to european technology fairly quickly and in some cases, brilliantly.  what the problem was was disease and internal squabbling/fighting that prevented them from defeating their enemies.  and not necessarily knowing they were enemies.

my comment is that the tone has shifted from one of celebration of the "wests" victories to making them out to be genocidal maniacs bent only on destruction.  and IMMORAL destruction.  that the people they conquered were somehow passive victims with no agency who were put to the sword by bloodthirsty european monsters.

 that is a sea change in how the history of the world is seen.  that europe and america no longer see their greatest accomplishments as accomplishments.

[Motown Bombers]

 

[Tigeraholic1]

1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

If you are the child of one of these people who believes 5G technology is in the vaccine or that Bill Clinton had Vince Foster clipped, how do you go to school and learn one thing from your Teacher about a given subject matter and then come home and have your whackjob parent tell you that's all a lie and completely untrue. How is nuance supposed to be break through andunderstood by that child when the parent is incapable and/or unwilling to have any or understand it themselves and is undermining everything the kid learns that day in school? With some of these people on the right (and yeah a few on the left, but mostly on the right) you can show them 1+1 = 2 every which way possible, but if they lack the intellectual heft to comprehend what you are teaching them or are so dense they refuse to listen and pay attention, it seems like a hopeless cause.

What about the kids of racist who fought in the Civil War? I think their parents felt Blacks were the same value as cattle. They understood their parents way of thinking was wrong and tried to make things better. I think there was alot of death to prove it.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Tigeraholic1

[romad1]

tee hee

[Hongbit]

21 minutes ago, romad1 said:

tee hee

So good. 
 

This video in the comments is even better especially for the folks old enough to remember Lawrence Welk

 

[CMRivdogs]

Just now, Hongbit said:

So good. 
 

This video in the comments is even better especially for the folks old enough to remember Lawrence Welk

 

“We thought it was religious rock” “It did say Sweet Jesus”

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, buddha said:

but that's always been the case (more or less, i would quibble that technology is brought into it and maybe too much.  disease is just as important and not discussed as much.  luck too).

in fact, i would argue that the native people in many respects adapted to european technology fairly quickly and in some cases, brilliantly.  what the problem was was disease and internal squabbling/fighting that prevented them from defeating their enemies.  and not necessarily knowing they were enemies.

my comment is that the tone has shifted from one of celebration of the "wests" victories to making them out to be genocidal maniacs bent only on destruction.  and IMMORAL destruction.  that the people they conquered were somehow passive victims with no agency who were put to the sword by bloodthirsty european monsters.

 that is a sea change in how the history of the world is seen.  that europe and america no longer see their greatest accomplishments as accomplishments.

Columbus definitely was not a genocidal maniac bent on the immoral destruction of the indigenous people of the Western Hemisphere. He was actually a stateless mercenary freebooter committed to the complete conquest, economic exploitation, and enslavement of the indigenous people of the Western Hemisphere. The genocide was merely a disciplinary strategy to keep the locals in line. It was so effective a strategy that subsequent conquerors of the Hemisphere had to import enslaved people from halfway around the world to do all the work, since 90% of the indigenous people were wiped out within the first century of European domination of the Americas.

[CMRivdogs]

Don’t forget the Spanish priests who tried to beat the love of Jesus into the indigenous tribes in the Mexican Territories 

[CMRivdogs]

Some scary stuff here…read the entire thread

 

[CMRivdogs]

Kathy Griffin would like to have a word

 

[smr-nj]

WTF.  
What has happened to my country… that is a sitting member of Congress.

[CMRivdogs]

So much for truth in advertising 

Edited November 8, 2021 by CMRivdogs

[Jim Cowan]

1 hour ago, Hongbit said:

So good. 
 

This video in the comments is even better especially for the folks old enough to remember Lawrence Welk

 

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!

[Jim Cowan]

1 hour ago, CMRivdogs said:

Don’t forget the Spanish priests who tried to beat the love of Jesus into the indigenous tribes in the Mexican Territories 

Yes I was going to mention that, the destructive force of Christianity in North America and especially in the Pacific islands, and the havoc that it wreaked.

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

What about the kids of racist who fought in the Civil War? I think their parents felt Blacks were the same value as cattle. They understood their parents way of thinking was wrong and tried to make things better. I think there was alot of death to prove it.

You're talking about kids who created the KKK, Jim Crow, and lynchings... right?