Cleanup in Aisle Lunatic (h/t romad1)

[Tiger337]

49 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I still don't get the Hillary hate. I'm told I'm suppose to hate her but I don't know why. 

I don't get it either.  She is married to a dirt bag and I find her personality annoying, but it's hard to find a national level politician who is not annoying and phoney.  I don't know what is terrible about her policy-wise.      

Edited March 8, 2023 by Tiger337

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

Agreed. They are relying on decades-old tropes about what economic geniuses conservatives are, effectively gaslighting their red hat base who are (perhaps willfully) ignorant of the actual history.

A friend told me recently that there should not be a minimum wage.  He claimed that if people want to work, they will get paid what they are worth.  

[romad1]

1 minute ago, Tiger337 said:

A friend told me recently that there should not be a minimum wage.  He claimed that if people want to work, they will get paid what they are worth.  

Please learn the lesson that Paranoids do not make good elected leaders or administrators.  She caused a lot of grief for Obama with her wacky ways. 

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

I still don't get the Hillary hate. I'm told I'm suppose to hate her but I don't know why. 

The reasons to hate are just made-up bullshit excuses.

Nothing more.

"But her emails".

That was the reason to vote for Trump instead of Hillary in 2016. The most corrupt/ anti-democratic POS in America. "But her emails".

[romad1]

fighting the fight for Hillary's lost 2016 is a lot like me wondering why Mitt Romney didn't sell.  The negatives became the narrative. 

[Motown Bombers]

2 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

The reasons to hate are just made-up bullshit excuses.

Nothing more.

"But her emails".

That was the reason to vote for Trump instead of Hillary in 2016. The most corrupt/ anti-democratic POS in America. "But her emails".

The Bernie or Bust people were all about her paid speeches but now Maple Jesus is doing paid speeches. 

[1984Echoes]

Yeah...

The fight is over. It's done and gone.

But mine was just a statement. She committed numerous faux pas on her own that helped her lose... And/ but there were also numerous issues that were either out of her hands or, as previously stated, just pure BS, that also contributed.

Those are just factual statements. The water is under the bridge and, now, we can only hope to fix the damage that MAGA is doing to this country.

I hope Trump runs as a 3rd party. That will fix a whole lot of things...

[1984Echoes]

4 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

The Bernie or Bust people were all about her paid speeches but now Maple Jesus is doing paid speeches. 

They weren't helpful either. 

Especially whomever of that crowd switched directly to TFG (don't know the actual numbers but it wasn't zero).

[oblong]

6 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

The reasons to hate are just made-up bullshit excuses.

Nothing more.

"But her emails".

That was the reason to vote for Trump instead of Hillary in 2016. The most corrupt/ anti-democratic POS in America. "But her emails".

For a lot of people it wasn't "but her emails".  It was for things they didn't like in 1994.

I'm not saying they were justified.... only giving the reason.  As soon as she uttered the words "Tammy Wynette" she turned off a lot of people.  That's just the way it is.  And the way they went after Clinton's accusers in the 90's didn't help her in 2016.

 

 

[oblong]

45 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

A friend told me recently that there should not be a minimum wage.  He claimed that if people want to work, they will get paid what they are worth.  

That's what happened after the pandemic then the excuse was "nobody wants to work".  Workers had options and busting their ass for $15 in a shitty customer facing job was less attractive than not busting their ass in another $15/hr job. 

[1984Echoes]

She wasn't the most likeable...

But there were other issues to consider in 2016 which is why she should have won in a complete landslide.

IMO.

[romad1]

2 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

She wasn't the most likeable...

But there were other issues to consider in 2016 which is why she should have won in a complete landslide.

IMO.

This is not wrong.  The influence ops run by the Russians in our system were real. 

[CMRivdogs]

5 minutes ago, oblong said:

For a lot of people it wasn't "but her emails".  It was for things they didn't like in 1994.

I'm not saying they were justified.... only giving the reason.  As soon as she uttered the words "Tammy Wynette" she turned off a lot of people.  That's just the way it is.  And the way they went after Clinton's accusers in the 90's didn't help her in 2016.

 

 

Combine that with the bake cookies followup...

 

[1984Echoes]

2 minutes ago, romad1 said:

This is not wrong.  The influence ops run by the Russians in our system were real. 

The absolute danger to our democracy from TFG were absolutely real.

But no one believed me at the time.

Now...

[oblong]

A large bloc of new Trump voters were people who think "they're all crooked" and putting a non politician in there wasn't a big risk.  These are the kind of people who voted for Jesse Ventura in MN.  They don't follow the news.  They are not engrossed in twitter and reading columns or doing research.  To them Trump was a real estate guy in NY and later on TV in the Apprentice.  "Get somebody from the outside in there to shake things up."   That was the extent of their involvement.  They knew nothing about Russia.  Hillary was old news.  Trump's philandering and 'grab em by the pussy' remarks were negated by Bill Clinton's behavior.   That is simply the reality we faced in 2016 and the problems we have to face when everybody gets to vote.  We can't control why they vote the way they do.   

[oblong]

 

[pfife]

59 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

A friend told me recently that there should not be a minimum wage.  He claimed that if people want to work, they will get paid what they are worth.  

The good ol markets are self policing argument.   One of the most fact free arguments there is.

[1984Echoes]

Just now, pfife said:

The good ol markets are self policing argument.   One of the most fact free arguments there is.

Or worse.

[Motown Bombers]

14 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

They weren't helpful either. 

Especially whomever of that crowd switched directly to TFG (don't know the actual numbers but it wasn't zero).

Progressives hate Democrats. Hillary had to take it from both sides. Some of them voted for loonspud Jill Stein who had Russian connections. A lot of those same progressives are carrying water for Russia in regards to Ukraine. 

[gehringer_2]

30 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

She wasn't the most likeable...

But there were other issues to consider in 2016 which is why she should have won in a complete landslide.

IMO.

For me it broke this way: Plenty of reasons in her long public history to believe she would not be a good leader and oppose her in the 2016 primaries. None-what-so-ever to have opposed her in the general once she had the nomination.

And don't understimate the 'likeable' part. Presidencies are about leadership and people don't like to follow people they don't like. Hill's is sort of the inverse image of Reagan. I think many people voted for Reagan who did not particularly agree with him on policy but they trusted certain things in his character/judgment when it came to leadership (esp after Carter's fecklessness wrt leadership qualities), and to a large degree, they were right. Reagan left behind a legacy of a lot of bad ecnomic policy, but leadership wise his presdency was a great success. I think a lot of people stayed home who agreed with Hillary on policy, but felt low confidence/enthusisam in her leadership qualities, and a lot of that exactly because she was so easy to dislike.

Edited March 8, 2023 by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

26 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Progressives hate Democrats

yeah - this too. Progs have no use for Bill Clinton's 80's vision of the Democratic party as the 'GOP Lite' and IDK if Hillary ever got past that with them. OTOH, a lot of the progressive wing if the Dem party is their women, and at least in my limited experience, I never met a Democratic woman voter who didn't love Hillary. Whatever kind of bad likeability vibes she sent the men, Dem woman were in her corner.

[smr-nj]

40 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

yeah - this too. Progs have no use for Bill Clinton's 80's vision of the Democratic party as the 'GOP Lite' and IDK if Hillary ever got past that with them. OTOH, a lot of the progressive wing if the Dem party is their women, and at least in my limited experience, I never met a Democratic woman voter who didn't love Hillary. Whatever kind of bad likeability vibes she sent the men, Dem woman were in her corner.

I’m. With. Her.  
 

(& btw, I haven’t seen anyone here in this latest discussion bring up the last minute FBI sabotage.. Because that is what it was, and I will NEVER be “ok” with that shit)

[Tiger337]

Part of the "problem" with Clinton is that she is a woman.  It's a lot easier to carry personal baggage if you are a man than a woman.  We expect a woman to be good and kind and honest at all times and if she gets away from that at all, then she's a "bitch".  If a man behaves like a bad boy, other men tend to overlook it and might even view it as a strength.   Look what they have done to Elizabeth Warren (who I think is more likeable than Clinton) over the Native American thing.  If any man did the same thing, it wouldn't be such a big deal.  It might even be viewed as shrewd.  This man versus woman thing is often overdone, but it's also real 

[ewsieg]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

Part of the "problem" with Clinton is that she is a woman.  It's a lot easier to carry personal baggage if you are a man than a woman.  We expect a woman to be good and kind and honest at all times and if she gets away from that at all, then she's a "bitch".  If a man behaves like a bad boy, other men tend to overlook it and might even view it as a strength.   Look what they have done to Elizabeth Warren (who I think is more likeable than Clinton) over the Native American thing.  If any man did the same thing, it wouldn't be such a big deal.  It might even be viewed as shrewd.  This man versus woman thing is often overdone, but it's also real 

George Santos copied Warren and then went full speed ahead.  So far, being male hasn't helped him out all that much.  Granted he's an idiot too so that adds a variable Warren doesn't have.

[gehringer_2]

"It's time for everyone to be an ex-twitter employee!"

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by gehringer_2