4/26 7:40 Tigers @ Twins

[1776]

So I watched the replay of the walk-off disaster from last night. I listened to it last night but didn’t care to see it then. I know there is a lot of conversation about Hasse’s horrible hand grenade throw to third, but what was up with Grossman? It looks as if he took the wrong route to the ball and never was on top of the ball off the bat. 
 

Edited April 27, 2022 by 1776

[chasfh]

As much as we’re piling on Haase this morning, can we finally start to conclude that Soto is not really a closer? I mean, he’ll do as a placeholder during a rebuild, but when is it going to be our turn to get a shut-down guy?

 

[mtutiger]

6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

As much as we’re piling on Haase this morning, can we finally start to conclude that Soto is not really a closer? I mean, he’ll do as a placeholder during a rebuild, but when is it going to be our turn to get a shut-down guy?

 

Best case scenario, maybe Alex Lange can be the guy?

[casimir]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

As much as we’re piling on Haase this morning, can we finally start to conclude that Soto is not really a closer? I mean, he’ll do as a placeholder during a rebuild, but when is it going to be our turn to get a shut-down guy?

 

Come on, who doesn't want an over 5 BB/9 in high leverage situations?  What could go wrong?

And its not just small sample size.  Its his resume in the majors and the minors.

[buddha]

why isnt fulmer the closer?

[casimir]

I don't mind Fulmer being brought in to face Buxton & Correa in the 8th.  I don't know if he was warming up when Baez hit his HR or not.  It was still a close enough game before that where Hinch would try to keep things close going into the top of the 9th.

A lot of players had a bad game last night.  The result of the Haase throw is the most glaring, but as was mentioned above, it wasn't the only miscue.

Here's one that wasn't brought up, why was Soto standing at the plate with his hands on his hips?  If a throw gets to the plate in time, he's risking interfering with that play.  If the runner takes a route on the foul side of the plate, and Soto is standing there observing, now you're putting a judgement call into the hands of the umpire when your team is on the road in the 9th inning in cold weather.

Edited April 27, 2022 by casimir

[Shades of Deivi Cruz]

8 minutes ago, casimir said:

Here's one that wasn't brought up, why was Soto standing at the plate with his hands on his hips?  If a throw gets to the plate in time, he's risking interfering with that play.  If the runner takes a route on the foul side of the plate, and Soto is standing there observing, now you're putting a judgement call into the hands of the umpire when your team is on the road in the 9th inning in cold weather.

Because he was covering the plate after Haas entered the rundown, and he could plainly see that he wasn't in the way of the runner and that they lost the game? I see lots of problems with that play, but where Soto was at the end isn't really one of them to me.

[romad1]

I'm really bitchy at work today because of last night.  I went to sleep with the lead and kept waking up but never checked the score.  Then I get up and look and see "Twins beat the Tigers 5-4" and it just ruined my day.   This stupid game.  Stupid Tigers and their stupid faces and dumb mothers who should never have had them. 

[mtutiger]

22 minutes ago, casimir said:

I don't mind Fulmer being brought in to face Buxton & Correa in the 8th.  I don't know if he was warming up when Baez hit his HR or not.  It was still a close enough game before that where Hinch would try to keep things close going into the top of the 9th.

 

Also, I really like Fulmer, but he sucked last night. Like Soto, he threw more balls than strikes and was lucky to get out of that 8th inning given all the hard contact. 

The debate over who should be the primary closer is a valid one, and maybe Fulmer should be given more consideration for that role, but last night's game is not the game to use to make that argument. Neither one was good, and given how Fulmer pitched, I can't say with any certitude that a better result would have taken place. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by mtutiger

[casimir]

14 minutes ago, Shades of Deivi Cruz said:

Because he was covering the plate after Haas entered the rundown, and he could plainly see that he wasn't in the way of the runner and that they lost the game? I see lots of problems with that play, but where Soto was at the end isn't really one of them to me.

Its down on the list of errors on that play, but it isn't helpful if there's a play at the plate on the 2nd runner.

Then again, if there was a throw, it would've probably hit a goose in flight or something stupid like that.

[oblong]

those kinds of plays are fun when it's another team.

As for who should be where.... the players know it more than we do.  It's the nature of sports to panic or adrenaline get to you in the moment and not be there.  It happens.

[casimir]

5 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Also, I really like Fulmer, but he sucked last night. Like Soto, he threw more balls than strikes and was lucky to get out of that 8th inning given all the hard contact. 

The debate over who should be the primary closer is a valid one, and maybe Fulmer should be given more consideration for that role, but last night's game is not the game to use to make that argument. Neither one was good, and given how Fulmer pitched, I can't say with any certitude that a better result would have taken place. 

I understand the fascination with Soto blowing the ball by hitters, but when it comes along with poor control......,

[mtutiger]

7 minutes ago, casimir said:

I understand the fascination with Soto blowing the ball by hitters, but when it comes along with poor control......,

I get it. When he has his control, he's unhittable.... but that only seems to happen a handful of times every season. lol

I guess what's getting me is that there's been a couple of comments about Fulmer that seem like revisionist history a bit here... Fulmer's outing involved a walk, a cookie to Buxton that he was lucky that Buxton didn't hit out, and a scorcher at 'em ball to Candy. And, like Soto, more balls than strikes.

Again, I can't sit here and say that the result would have been any different had Soto had the 8th/Fulmer the 9th or whether you sent Fulmer back out there for the 9th. He was shaky as well. The reality is that they need both guys to pitch better than they did last night... when neither one is on, you risk losing the game.

Edited April 27, 2022 by mtutiger

[casimir]

6 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I get it. When he has his control, he's unhittable.... but that only seems to happen a handful of times every season. lol

I guess what's getting me is that there's been a couple of comments about Fulmer that seem like revisionist history a bit here... Fulmer's outing involved a walk, a cookie to Buxton that he was lucky that Buxton didn't hit out, and a scorcher at 'em ball to Candy. And, like Soto, more balls than strikes.

Again, I can't sit here and say that the result would have been any different had Soto had the 8th/Fulmer the 9th or whether you sent Fulmer back out there for the 9th. He was shaky as well. The reality is that they need both guys to pitch better than they did last night... when neither one is on, you risk losing the game.

Yes, the Tigers got lucky to escape the bottom of the 8th and I guess it could be said the baseball gods weren't offering the same sort of luck in the bottom of the 9th.

[chasfh]

47 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Also, I really like Fulmer, but he sucked last night. Like Soto, he threw more balls than strikes and was lucky to get out of that 8th inning given all the hard contact. 

The debate over who should be the primary closer is a valid one, and maybe Fulmer should be given more consideration for that role, but last night's game is not the game to use to make that argument. Neither one was good, and given how Fulmer pitched, I can't say with any certitude that a better result would have taken place. 

I would say that compared with Soto’s Savant card above, this is a pretty good reason to give Fulmer a chance to lock down ninths.

 

[mtutiger]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I would say that compared with Soto’s Savant card above, this is a pretty good reason to give Fulmer a chance to lock down ninths.

 

On the macro question, I'm not debating at all. Have said that multiple times.

But in terms of last night, both guys sucked. They just did. And if you had switched roles (ie. Soto pitched the 8th, Fulmer 9th) or had Fulmer do two innings of work, does that change the outcome given how, again, both guys sucked last night? I can't say that.

At the end of the day, one may be better than the other, but both of these guys are leverage guys.... and when neither one is on, you are at risk of losing ballgames.

Edited April 27, 2022 by mtutiger

[chasfh]

Next time Hinch needs a save, I would bet a dollar to a dime that he will throw Soto out there. I have little doubt of that.

In terms of who's throwing better during the season, there's really little debate to be had. It's Fulmer, and whether it's for next the save opportunity, or for one a month from now after Soto will have had two or three more high-profile meltdowns—just to make extra special certain it's persistent—Fulmer's gonna get his chance.

[RatkoVarda]

it's unfortunate that Hinch went from mixing and matching Cisnero, Soto and Fulmer as needed for most of the year,

to Soto is my closer after the season

[mtutiger]

The situation is what it is, but I guess I don't understand the fixation on fluffing Fulmer after an outing where he threw more balls than strikes and one where he's lucky that Buxton didn't send one of his pitches to the third deck.

Honestly, I'd prefer they went with him over Soto in the closers role or at least go back to a more closer by committee situation, but given how both looked last night, I wouldn't have had much more confidence in Fulmer in the 9th than Soto. And even if you do make him closer, aren't you still stuck hoping Soto pitches better in the set up role? 

At the end of the day, the roles are only a part of the problem... the reality is that both of these guys, for better or worse, are leverage guys. Maybe one is better than the other overall, but neither had it last night. And when neither guy has it, it makes it harder to nail down the win. 

[gehringer_2]

the problem last night was that Soto has been sitting too much.  That was only his second appearance in 12 days. Sure a manager doesn't wan't to use a guy in a loss just to give him some work only to end up needing him 3 days in a row and not having him, but you can't sit a guy like Soto 7 days and 5 days back to back.

Edited April 27, 2022 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

lol fluffing fulmer

[gehringer_2]

I'd rank the fiasco as #1 -tiger hitters wasted too many chances, #2 Grossman - he has to catch the ball, #3 Haase panicked, rushed, blew the play, #4 Hinch - let Soto get rusty.

[mtutiger]

On the reliever discussion, for arguments sake, let's say that Fulmer is actually the closer and given the 9th in last night's game.

What do you do with Soto? Do you send him out there in the 8th to protect the one run lead? Would he have been any better or more reliable in one's view pitching in the 8th rather than the 9th? Do you bump Lange up to the set up man and drop Soto down to the 7th inning? Should he just not come in at all and have someone like Barnes or Vest pitch? Should they have stuck Chafin in there on his first day back? Where do you draw the line?

That's sort of the problem with having a debate about Soto in the closer role within the context of last night's game.... at the end of the day, even if you rearrange the deck chairs, he's still one of your leverage guys and is going to have to come in during leverage situations. You can't just hide him. And Fulmer, also a leverage guy, wasn't great either in last night's game.

Most teams are going to struggle when their 8th and 9th inning guys have bad days... it doesn't really matter which order they pitch in IMO

Edited April 27, 2022 by mtutiger

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I would say that compared with Soto’s Savant card above, this is a pretty good reason to give Fulmer a chance to lock down ninths.

 

This is not directed at you.  I am just using your post to say something about statcast stats which are being used more and more.  I have not seen any evidence that the statcast stats for pitchers tell us any more than the older stats like wOBA and FIP.  I do agree though that Fulmer is better than Soto!     

Edited April 27, 2022 by Tiger337

[Tiger337]

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Edited April 27, 2022 by Tiger337