All Hype, no Haymaker

[bobrob2004]

4 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Oh...and BTW? Cincinnati has scored more runs than the Tigers. I think we may have better pitching?

Cincinnati has a team ERA of 6.90.

[SoCalTiger]

There are four big differences between this years team and last years teams despite similar records at this time :

1. Talent - This years team has way more talent. Witness Baez, Meadows, Erod, Barnhart, Chafin, Tork etc.

2. Injuries - Mize, Manning, Baez, Greene, Funk, Cisnereo etc. Thats quite a bit.

3. Sustainability - once injuries heal and talent/performance normalizes it should sustain at a competitive level. Last years teams required many career years and flash rookie performances to finish strong. As some here have noted they played over their heads.

4. Expectations - Per Sports_Freak - there was much higher pressure this year than last. It's much easier playing for a loser than a team expected to win. I think this contributed to them playing tight..especially the fielding and lack of clutch hitting.

8-16 sure is ugly. A .500 season now is a major accomplishment but one that is still in the offering as is an enjoyable summer of baseball.  

 

[mtutiger]

40 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

There are four big differences between this years team and last years teams despite similar records at this time :

1. Talent - This years team has way more talent. Witness Baez, Meadows, Erod, Barnhart, Chafin, Tork etc.

2. Injuries - Mize, Manning, Baez, Greene, Funk, Cisnereo etc. Thats quite a bit.

3. Sustainability - once injuries heal and talent/performance normalizes it should sustain at a competitive level. Last years teams required many career years and flash rookie performances to finish strong. As some here have noted they played over their heads.

4. Expectations - Per Sports_Freak - there was much higher pressure this year than last. It's much easier playing for a loser than a team expected to win. I think this contributed to them playing tight..especially the fielding and lack of clutch hitting.

8-16 sure is ugly. A .500 season now is a major accomplishment but one that is still in the offering as is an enjoyable summer of baseball.  

 

One thing I've been doing this year is trying to compare starting lineups with the ones from the year before on that day.

One year ago, the Tigers featured Wilson Ramos and Jacoby Jones. It was 12-9 loss to the Red Sox in Boston.

By any objective measures, even considering the results thus far, they are set up much better than a year ago. Whether they show up quickly or not is a fair question, but it will click at some point.

Edited May 6, 2022 by mtutiger

[Dave Christian]

It's very sad for me to see other teams to have offensive success and my Tigers none.

 

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, SoCalTiger said:

There are four big differences between this years team and last years teams despite similar records at this time :

1. Talent - This years team has way more talent. Witness Baez, Meadows, Erod, Barnhart, Chafin, Tork etc.

2. Injuries - Mize, Manning, Baez, Greene, Funk, Cisnereo etc. Thats quite a bit.

3. Sustainability - once injuries heal and talent/performance normalizes it should sustain at a competitive level. Last years teams required many career years and flash rookie performances to finish strong. As some here have noted they played over their heads.

4. Expectations - Per Sports_Freak - there was much higher pressure this year than last. It's much easier playing for a loser than a team expected to win. I think this contributed to them playing tight..especially the fielding and lack of clutch hitting.

8-16 sure is ugly. A .500 season now is a major accomplishment but one that is still in the offering as is an enjoyable summer of baseball.  

 

I always thought it would be easier to play for a team with expectations than a team with no hope.  It must be hard to stay motivated when you expect your team to lose most nights.  

[buddha]

its still very early and theyre very injured.  give em some time.

[HeyAbbott]

Hmm... 8-16. If they play .500 the rest of the way, they are a 77 win team. I thought they were an 85 win team with Greene, Mize, and Manning healthy for most of the year. To steal a thought form W. H. Auden, they are mere mortals that need to be infused and inspired with immortal fire.

[SoCalTiger]

6 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I always thought it would be easier to play for a team with expectations than a team with no hope.  It must be hard to stay motivated when you expect your team to lose most nights.  

You may very well be right in the long run but maybe it's different at the start ? Probably different for each person.

[Useful Idiot]

On 5/6/2022 at 10:30 AM, Sports_Freak said:

 On the other hand, think about the Reds. 3-22 after starting out 2-1. It means they're 1-21 in their last 22 games. And get this.

I've always hated the reds, so I get more joy out of their current predicament, than I'm getting from my preferred ball club.

Earlier in the year with the fans expressing their disfavor, and  Reds President Phil Castellini threatening them to "be careful what you wish for"......THAT  WAS A CLASSIC!!!

If  A Avila made such a boast, I'd be like "threaten me with  a good time?"

[RandyMarsh]

I went and watched the Tigers play the Reds in Cincinnati in 2012 and the Reds fans there were nothing but class to me and my then GF. Had some friendly debates with a few people about how who was better between Miggy and Votto, we also talked about our respective farm systems etc. They were super polite, in fact we went to grab a couple drinks and while we were gone I believe it was Ramon Santiago that hit a HR right by where we were sitting, when we got back to our seats the guy saved the ball and asked if we wanted it. Just great people, so maybe I got lucky but just from that experience I have secretly had a soft spot for the Reds ever since. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by RandyMarsh

[Useful Idiot]

On 5/6/2022 at 10:37 AM, Tiger337 said:

It's very plausible and it's the main reason for those 75-win projections being made before the season.  They are playing very poorly now, but they were not going to win anyway unless most of their young players had break out seasons at the same time, which is unreasonable.  

I guess the fan experience differs from person to person?  Somehow the shinola from AA patting himself on the back for disdaining "drunken sailors" is seemingly taking on new relevance now that our prudence is paying off so handsomely.  Which is why I congratulated mr Ilitch's enjoyment with keeping his money, in my very first post.

I believe that blaming injuries  for our predicament is little more than convenient scapegoating. We could have reached for the stars, but instead settled for "almost as good as" coupled with an economics lecture.

And You know? I'm really sorry that I keep repeating myself, but I just don't  get excited enough to cheer "fiscal responsibility"....obviously a character flaw on my part, to hear the sunshiners  tell it. 

"More bang for the buck" takes on a damning meaning when one sits in the cellar...we ARE the "store generic" brand...sorry if my candor ruffles some feathers

[Tiger337]

I grew in the Big Red Machine era and they were frequently on national TV which was a big deal back then.  They were one of the most exciting teams I have seen in my life.  Thus, I have always liked the Reds.   

[Jim Cowan]

Yes I could probably fill out a lineup card for those guys right now without looking.  Bench Perez Morgan Concepcion Rose Foster Griffey Geronimo.

[Useful Idiot]

Much of my dissatisfaction stems back to the organization's decision that we didn't need to field a decent product during the rebuild.  Seeing former players such as Verlander, Scherzer, JD Martinez and Castellano go on to experience success, while we became pitiful.... was a hard pill to swallow.

Hard to believe we'd be in the mess we are in now if we had those guys with us now in addition to the rooks we have our hopes hung so highly on.

 

And we COULDA got Max, we COULDA got Nick, we COULDA got Correa....'cept for that  contempt we have for large numbers........so instead we got 8-17

Hope that clarifies the confusion over my "almost as good as" comment that some were struggling with earlier.

[Useful Idiot]

But hey, now that "warm weather is almost here", I'm sure they'll come around? The fact that other teams have been enjoying success against us despite the cold weather, is totally irrelevant. Must be some other cliches worth adding?

If we were like .490, or .460, or even .430 then some of the more convenient excuses might have merit.  Perhaps one could argue "we've got a few kinks to work out, then we're good" and have some basis for credibility.

But there is no excuse for a sub .333 team.    When you're bad, at least have the grace to own it

Edited May 7, 2022 by Useful Idiot

[Useful Idiot]

It's gotten so bad that I understand A. Avila was trying to get the Rally Goose to come back to Comerica Park,  as a co-mascot. 

The Goose claimed he had a better offer in Japan. 

[Sports_Freak]

21 hours ago, Useful Idiot said:

Much of my dissatisfaction stems back to the organization's decision that we didn't need to field a decent product during the rebuild.  Seeing former players such as Verlander, Scherzer, JD Martinez and Castellano go on to experience success, while we became pitiful.... was a hard pill to swallow.

Hard to believe we'd be in the mess we are in now if we had those guys with us now in addition to the rooks we have our hopes hung so highly on.

 

And we COULDA got Max, we COULDA got Nick, we COULDA got Correa....'cept for that  contempt we have for large numbers........so instead we got 8-17

Hope that clarifies the confusion over my "almost as good as" comment that some were struggling with earlier.

We wouldn't have those rookies if we kept the very expensive players who never won a title here. It took a lot of losing to draft all of our injured pitchers...and Greene...and Kreidler.

[Sports_Freak]

On 5/6/2022 at 6:44 PM, buddha said:

its still very early and theyre very injured.  give em some time.

I'm still waiting to panic after Brad Ausmus told us not to start panicking back in 2015. 😅😅

[Motor City Sonics]

On 5/6/2022 at 5:08 PM, SoCalTiger said:

There are four big differences between this years team and last years teams despite similar records at this time :

1. Talent - This years team has way more talent. Witness Baez, Meadows, Erod, Barnhart, Chafin, Tork etc.

2. Injuries - Mize, Manning, Baez, Greene, Funk, Cisnereo etc. Thats quite a bit.

3. Sustainability - once injuries heal and talent/performance normalizes it should sustain at a competitive level. Last years teams required many career years and flash rookie performances to finish strong. As some here have noted they played over their heads.

4. Expectations - Per Sports_Freak - there was much higher pressure this year than last. It's much easier playing for a loser than a team expected to win. I think this contributed to them playing tight..especially the fielding and lack of clutch hitting.

8-16 sure is ugly. A .500 season now is a major accomplishment but one that is still in the offering as is an enjoyable summer of baseball.  

 

Oh they lollygag the ball around the infield,  they lollygag their way down to first, they lollygag in and out of the dugout.  You know what that makes the? 

[KL2]

On 5/6/2022 at 6:04 PM, Dave Christian said:

It's very sad for me to see other teams to have offensive success and my Tigers none.

 

Which teams would those be? 

Give you know, offensive is like at 1968 levels

[KL2]

22 hours ago, Useful Idiot said:

Much of my dissatisfaction stems back to the organization's decision that we didn't need to field a decent product during the rebuild.  Seeing former players such as Verlander, Scherzer, JD Martinez and Castellano go on to experience success, while we became pitiful.... was a hard pill to swallow.

Hard to believe we'd be in the mess we are in now if we had those guys with us now in addition to the rooks we have our hopes hung so highly on.

 

And we COULDA got Max, we COULDA got Nick, we COULDA got Correa....'cept for that  contempt we have for large numbers........so instead we got 8-17

Hope that clarifies the confusion over my "almost as good as" comment that some were struggling with earlier.

I don't know if there are words to desribe how bad this post is. It's like its own world, not one based on facts, just like I-already-made-up-my-mind-and-given-up-all-reasonable-thinking anaylsis. 

"We didn't need to field a decent product during the rebuild."

OK, I've asked many a times before about what that accomplishes. The best someone comes up with is that its a quasi-feel good well I like it better than losing 114. That's it. It doesn't make you better in the long run and it doesn't put butts in the seat. All it does is give you a worst draft pick.

For example let's look at 2018, The only two guys with better WARs so far are INdia and Horner. I'm not sure I want them more than Mize. But, if we won a few more meanligless games in 2017 likely would have left us with someone other than mize.  Seems "fielding a decent product during the rebuild" would have just stunned the rebuild

Yes If we had Verlander, Scherzer and JD right now plus the rooks we might be good, or we might not. We also might be better with trout. Or the ghost of Lefty Grove. Those players left/we traded because we hit the pleateau in 2015. We weren't gonna win with them because we had nothing but them and if they stayed around we certaintly we wouldn't have the rookies. 

And those rookies "We have our hopes hung so high on." That's how it works. You can't just keep running out Jack Morris at some point new players come along. No reason being afraid just because they are rookies. Someone will have to be in the Hall of FAme in 2035.

"And we coulda gotta max"

No we couldn't have. The way he left he's not coming back. 

"We could have gotten nick"
Nick C WAR 05. Grossman .3 Meadows has .8. Two of those guys make uner $5 million, one makes $20. I'll let you figure it who

"We coulda got correa"

Correra WAR .6, Baez .7. ANd Baez costs $13 million less. 

So the three guys you listed would have likely no impact on our current win loss. 

Then you go on your complete BULL idea of "contempt we have for large numbers" Idea. We are paying Baez more than 20 million and a pitcher that much too. We spent like what $200 million in theoffseason. You're treating like we spent $20. This is just complete and utter whining just to whine, its not fair or reasonable. You might be able to argue they should have spent it better, on other guys or what not but to say we are adverse to large numbers after spending $200 million just makes you look foolish. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by KL2

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, KL2 said:

Then you go on your complete BULL idea of "contempt we have for large numbers" Idea. We are paying Baez more than 20 million and a pitcher that much too. We spent like what $200 million in theoffseason. You're treating like we spent $20. This is just complete and utter whining just to whine, its not fair or reasonable. You might be able to argue they should have spent it better, on other guys or what not but to say we are adverse to large numbers after spending $200 million just makes you look foolish. 

This is so spot on... 

And even on the latter point, does signing Correa instead of Baez or, say, Gausman instead of ERod make *that* much of a difference record wise to this team, with the way they have played so far? I doubt it.

[Useful Idiot]

2 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

We wouldn't have those rookies if we kept the very expensive players who never won a title here. It took a lot of losing to draft all of our injured pitchers...and Greene...and Kreidler.

Now I want you to follow very closely here....Max and Nick and Correa had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with our "rooks of the future" being here now, and each of them could have been signed this past year. But our commitment to "fiscal excellence" is why we now have E Rod instead of Max, Baez instead of Correa, and "whoever" instead of Nick.

How are the teams doing who signed those guys (yes I know the Phillies are in 4th place)

Yet we are underperforming even them

 

[Useful Idiot]

2 hours ago, KL2 said:

I don't know if there are words to desribe how bad this post is. It's like its own world, not one based on facts, just like I-already-made-up-my-mind-and-given-up-all-reasonable-thinking anaylsis. 

"We didn't need to field a decent product during the rebuild."

OK, I've asked many a times before about what that accomplishes. The best someone comes up with is that its a quasi-feel good well I like it better than losing 114. That's it. It doesn't make you better in the long run and it doesn't put butts in the seat. All it does is give you a worst draft pick.

---<Snip>--

 

. You might be able to argue they should have spent it better, on other guys or what not but to say we are adverse to large numbers after spending $200 million just makes you look foolish. 

I pay to see a competitive team on the field, I don't cheer for the financial well being of the ilitch empire. If we had traded off our proven talent for top tier prospects, I'd be more "on board" with the overall strategy. but as the cards fell it's pretty obvious that it was  just a salary dump.

After A Avilia's  boast about his disdain for "drunken sailors",   He seems to have succeeded admirably in that one regard. It's a real shame that's not one of my criteria in being a sports fan.

After his boast, if he succeeded, then he's a hero. But he didn't, so he's not. 

Try to refrain from your diminutive personal editorializations  please,  I can shovel it as well as you can, but would rather not aggravate the moderators. Hope you can at least agree with me on that one point?

[Sports_Freak]

34 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

Now I want you to follow very closely here....Max and Nick and Correa had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with our "rooks of the future" being here now, and each of them could have been signed this past year. But our commitment to "fiscal excellence" is why we now have E Rod instead of Max, Baez instead of Correa, and "whoever" instead of Nick.

How are the teams doing who signed those guys (yes I know the Phillies are in 4th place)

Yet we are underperforming even them

 

Listen closely.....stop trolling and hating. If you don't like watching the Tigers, go knit yourself a sweater.