General Tiger Discussion

[sabretooth]

3 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

If you want to advance, you gotta take a chance!

That is a very good bumper sticker phrase...love it 👍

[1984Echoes]

Why can't there be team options for the last few years of a 10 year contract? Or games played requirements. 130 games played = automatic renewal of years 8-9-10 (games played per each previous year that is...), less than 130 = team has the option to renew or buy out the last years at a 90% discount. Let's say $35 mill/ year the last 3 = $10.5mm to buy out the last 3 years if the player is constantly injured. Player gets something, team gets out of an albatross.

Edited November 18, 2021 by 1984Echoes

[1984Echoes]

damn... I've been trying to edit typos before posting but every now & then I forget to double-check...

[Longgone]

4 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Why can't there be team options for the last few years of a 10 year contract? Or games played requirements. 130 games played = automatic renewal of years 8-9-10 (games played per each previous year that is...), less than 130 = team has the option to renew or buy out the last years at a 90% discount. Let's say $35 mill/ year the last 3 = $10.5mm to buy out the last 3 years if the player is constantly injured. Player gets something, team gets out of an albatross.

Because the players wont agree to them?

[John_Brian_K]

58 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I think the only guy that has paid off on a 10 yr deal was ARod's original deal from Tx. Because they signed him at 24. He produced every year on that contract until he opted out (now with the Yankees) of the last 3 yrs. Yankees then extended him for 10 yr at 31 and got only 5 productive years. If you look at Arod, Pujols and Cabrera - three of the greatest players of their eras - "generational" by any definition, and NONE of them could produce on a long term contract that took them into their later 30s. And Trout probably won't either. Just offer a guy $60M for 5 yrs and be done with it since that's what you are actually going to get! 

Honestly I wish it was in the collective bargaining to just max contracts at 8 years at the least..not sure if the players will sign that though.

I mean I get that it is the landscape now and if you want those top tier guys you have to "play ball", BUT in this class of SS...I just do not think you throw the check book at Correa and just cross your fingers and hope it works out.  We are not one guy away from a WS...I think right now we are 1-2 good guys away from the playoffs.

Honestly I would be more happy if they said they got Correa for 200 mil over 5 years than 300 mil over 10.  He would still be the highest paid SS per year and we are only on the hook for 5 years.  I KNOW that will never happen, just sayin.

[RandyMarsh]

Your best bet if you want to get out if a contract early is to give the player an out after 3 years(ideally it would be 4 or 5 but players don't take those), the problem with that though is if say in Correa's case he is elite those 3 years we put ourselves in a pickle of either letting him walk for nothing or ponying up an even bigger contract to keep him.

The positive though is gives you 3 years of elite play and buys you 3 years of time to potentially develop a home grown replacement.

[John_Brian_K]

26 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Why can't there be team options for the last few years of a 10 year contract? Or games played requirements. 130 games played = automatic renewal of years 8-9-10 (games played per each previous year that is...), less than 130 = team has the option to renew or buy out the last years at a 90% discount. Let's say $35 mill/ year the last 3 = $10.5mm to buy out the last 3 years if the player is constantly injured. Player gets something, team gets out of an albatross.

Yeah I mean you can draft a contract like that, but the next team takes that stipulation out of theirs and that guy is over there now.

[gehringer_2]

12 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Your best bet if you want to get out if a contract early is to give the player an out after 3 years(ideally it would be 4 or 5 but players don't take those), the problem with that though is if say in Correa's case he is elite those 3 years we put ourselves in a pickle of either letting him walk for nothing or ponying up an even bigger contract to keep him.

The positive though is gives you 3 years of elite play and buys you 3 years of time to potentially develop a home grown replacement.

yup - offer the opt out and front load the contract a bit and pray like crazy that being at the top of his game at 31 or 32 and seeing that new deals at higher AAV are being signed encourages the athlete to opt out. You might lose one or two years of performance but have saved yourself a likely 5yrs of shoveling money into a black hole.

[Tiger337]

49 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

That is a very good bumper sticker phrase...love it 👍

I am typically very cautious in my own life, but baseball is entertainment and someone else is taking the risk, so why not root for them to take a risk which might make my entertainment experience better? 

[casimir]

9 hours ago, John_Brian_K said:

Even giving him 152 his rookie year he is averaging 115 games a year....300+ mil for 115 games?  Now he could very well go on to play 150+ games every year from here on out, but to me that is pie in the sky thinking...something 2010 JBK would be doing right now...while I am still an optimist...I also want to see the team contending every year for a long time.

I get it.  If they’re paying someone $30M for 10, I want them to be available.  But I have a hard time with a 10 year deal anyway, so there’s that.

[bobrob2004]

2 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Why can't there be team options for the last few years of a 10 year contract? Or games played requirements. 130 games played = automatic renewal of years 8-9-10 (games played per each previous year that is...), less than 130 = team has the option to renew or buy out the last years at a 90% discount. Let's say $35 mill/ year the last 3 = $10.5mm to buy out the last 3 years if the player is constantly injured. Player gets something, team gets out of an albatross.

That's how Cabrera's current contract is structured. He has 8 guaranteed years with 2 team options that are guaranteed if he finished in the top 10 MVP voting.  The Tigers can buyout the last 2 years at $8 million. 

[1984Echoes]

21 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

That's how Cabrera's current contract is structured. He has 8 guaranteed years with 2 team options that are guaranteed if he finished in the top 10 MVP voting.  The Tigers can buyout the last 2 years at $8 million. 

Do it.

Let him get his 3000+ and if he's scuffling buy him out.

I thought the last two years were already locked in though? Are you certain the buy-out is still in effect?

 

[bobrob2004]

2 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Do it.

Let him get his 3000+ and if he's scuffling buy him out.

I thought the last two years were already locked in though? Are you certain the buy-out is still in effect?

 

There's nothing here saying they are locked in, and they are usually up-to-date (already shows Eduardo Rodriguez contract).

 https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/american-league/detroit-tigers/

[1984Echoes]

5 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

There's nothing here saying they are locked in, and they are usually up-to-date (already shows Eduardo Rodriguez contract).

 https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/american-league/detroit-tigers/

OIC.

2022-2023 are already locked in.

We have to pay $16 Mill on top of that to buy him out of 2024-25.

[sabretooth]

5 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I am typically very cautious in my own life, but baseball is entertainment and someone else is taking the risk, so why not root for them to take a risk which might make my entertainment experience better? 

A little harder to put on a bumper sticker, but still spot on

[Tigermojo]

Is this realistic for next year? That's 37.5 WAR. A good starter, better bullpen and better DH could push them to contend.

Barnhart 1

Torkelson 2.5

Schoop 2

Baez 3

Candelario 3

Baddoo 2.5

Greene 2

Grossman 2

Cabrera -1

Haase 1

Hill .5

H. Castro .5

 

Rodriguez 3

Mize 2

Skubal 2.5

Manning 1.5

5th starter 1

Alexander 1

Fulmer 1.5

Cisnero 1

Soto 1

Funkhouser .5

Lange .5

Foley .5

Jiminez .5

Closer? 1

[AlaskanTigersFan]

3 hours ago, Tigermojo said:

Is this realistic for next year? That's 37.5 WAR. A good starter, better bullpen and better DH could push them to contend.

Barnhart 1 - Trash

Torkelson 2.5 - Hopefully good

Schoop 2 - Trash

Baez 3 - Hopefully good 

Candelario 3 - Hopefully good but highly doubting it. 2nd Division Regular AT BEST.

Baddoo 2.5 - had career year last year

Greene 2 - Hopefully good

Grossman 2 - 2nd Division Regular, not 1st Division Regular

Cabrera -1 - Should have retired 4 years ago but would you if you were getting paid 28 mil to suck?

Haase 1 - Trash

Hill .5 - Trash

H. Castro .5 - Trash

 

Rodriguez 3 

Mize 2

Skubal 2.5

Manning 1.5

5th starter 1

Alexander 1

Fulmer 1.5

Cisnero 1

Soto 1

Funkhouser .5

Lange .5

Foley .5

Jiminez .5

Closer? 1

Our lineup literally might have one first division Regular in it. We are going to suck boys. Unless Torkelson and Greene come up on fire and both bat .300/.350+/.500+ we might, MIGHT get 3rd in our division. We basically have three bats (maybe four if you are a Candy believer) that could potentially be starting on a real play off team.

 

I don't want to be debbie downer, but our lineup flat out blows. We played out of our minds last year. Our pitching I think is WAY ahead of our hitters. You can't win a division, let alone playoff games with three good hitters (assuming we get the 2nd half Baez and Tork and Greene come up with no growing pains). Those three are literally our only decent hitters and two of them haven't even played in the majors yet..... We might have the worst lineup in the American League if not all of MLB...... 

[casimir]

Grossman, 9/7

Greene, 8/9

Baez, 6

Torkelson, 3

Candelario, 5

Cabrera, DH

Schoop, 4

Catching tandem

Baddoo, 7 / Hill, 8

I think that's what we're looking at for Opening Day

 

 

[Archie]

7 hours ago, AlaskanTigersFan said:

Our lineup literally might have one first division Regular in it. We are going to suck boys. Unless Torkelson and Greene come up on fire and both bat .300/.350+/.500+ we might, MIGHT get 3rd in our division. We basically have three bats (maybe four if you are a Candy believer) that could potentially be starting on a real play off team.

 

I don't want to be debbie downer, but our lineup flat out blows. We played out of our minds last year. Our pitching I think is WAY ahead of our hitters. You can't win a division, let alone playoff games with three good hitters (assuming we get the 2nd half Baez and Tork and Greene come up with no growing pains). Those three are literally our only decent hitters and two of them haven't even played in the majors yet..... We might have the worst lineup in the American League if not all of MLB...... 

I think the Tigers still have work to do but I don't think it's a bad a you are projecting. At least I hope not.  One big question mark is Baddoo. We will find out if he's the real deal or a one year phenom. If I had to bet I'd go with the real deal. 

[Jim Cowan]

Schoop is trash?

[Archie]

5 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Schoop is trash?

I think Schoop is a bargain based on what others have signed for.

[Tiger337]

The Tigers are probably a .500 team if everything goes as projected.  However, they have a bunch of young players who could develop fast.  If enough of them break out, they could contend.  

[SoCalTiger]

4 hours ago, casimir said:

Grossman, 9/7

Greene, 8/9

Baez, 6

Torkelson, 3

Candelario, 5

Cabrera, DH

Schoop, 4

Catching tandem

Baddoo, 7 / Hill, 8

I think that's what we're looking at for Opening Day

 

 

That's not too bad assuming the rookies don't struggle more than expected, Miggy doesn't crash and Badoo isn't a mirage/sophomore jinx victim. Lots of assumptions but the upside is very high. One solid bench player would be great insurance. Chris Taylor ? Probably need pitching more. maybe we can find a cheaper version.

[bobrob2004]

I would hesitate putting Greene/Torkelson in the top/middle of the lineup yet.  Maybe later if they prove they can hit ML pitching.  Then again, I would also hesitate putting them on the opening day roster unless they absolutely tear it up in Spring Training.

Grossman

Schoop

Candelario

Cabrera

Baez

Torkelson

Greene

Barnhart

Baddoo

Maybe it's just the pessimism in me thinking that the Tigers can have 2 all-star rookies right out of the gate. 

Also, is Greene really that good defensively to play CF?  It would be awesome to watch Greene/Baddoo/Hill all in the outfield at the same time.

[mtutiger]

4 hours ago, Archie said:

I think the Tigers still have work to do but I don't think it's a bad a you are projecting. At least I hope not.  One big question mark is Baddoo. We will find out if he's the real deal or a one year phenom. If I had to bet I'd go with the real deal. 

I get where ATF is coming from in that there were some rather surprising performances (ie. Grossman, Baddoo, maybe even Candy to an extent) that may not necessarily be replicated next year. 

On the other hand, they aren't gonna be trotting out Willi Castro and Niko Goodrum at short stop and adding the two youngsters, even if they are green, are gonna be net additions to the existing lineup. Maybe upwards of 3 WAR

As for how they grade out, I don't think they are gonna be the worst lineup in the American League... that's probably gonna be Oakland and Baltimore. I do think they are still in the lower half though, depending on how the youngsters progress