General Tiger Discussion

[casimir]

Just now, Useful Idiot said:

As I said in another post, I would love to see Victor get better, so that I could call him "under rated".

We would all like to see him get better.  But he hasn't and he's below average.  That's not a good combo.

[gehringer_2]

18 minutes ago, casimir said:

But why do you assume Reyes will improve when he hasn't?  That was the question.

he doesn't have to get better to be a viable 4th OF. Right now he is a ~750 OPS player coming into his peak hitting years who can field all three OF spots and run a little when on the bases. What do we expect to have in a 4th OF?

I'd absolutely like to see what Hill can do longer term, but as a GM, in terms of downside risk as of this moment - Reyes is a safer bet than Hill.

Edited September 30, 2021 by gehringer_2

[Useful Idiot]

7 minutes ago, casimir said:

We would all like to see him get better.  But he hasn't and he's below average.  That's not a good combo.

Personally, I believe he  is better than most give him credit for. Sometimes opportunity can be empowering. I hope that can be the case for him.   And I think waiting until next year's deadline to make a final determination is highly unlikely to interfere with  any championship window available to us,

If I felt that Greene truly was ready for the leap now,  then I might feel differently

Edited September 30, 2021 by Useful Idiot

[gehringer_2]

5 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

he doesn't have to get better to be a viable 4th OF. Right now he is a ~750 OPS player coming into his peak hitting years who can field all three OF spots and run a little when on the bases. What do we expect to have in a 4th OF?

I'd absolutely like to see what Hill can do longer term, but as a GM, in terms of downside risk as of this moment - Reyes is a safer bet than Hill.

Of course, I'd still rather have Kiermaier than either of them, but Tampa has quite the luxury with him as a 4th OF!

[Useful Idiot]

4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

he doesn't have to get better to be a viable 4th OF. Right now he is a ~750 OPS player coming into his peak hitting years who can field all three OF spots and run a little when on the bases. What do we expect to get in a 4th OF?

I think that he potentially could make Grossman expendable. Assuming ( IF, in other words), he continues  to get better.

Id love to have three outfielders with "wheels", I guess that is my main motivation

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, SoCalTiger said:

Yes. I have been saying this since mid year. But not Mize. Perhaps San Diego will want more so offer Alexander and ask for Kim. We get two quality middle infielders and San Diego gets two young pitchers and some salary relief that they need. I would even sweeten it with one of Reyes, Castro, Cameron or Cisnero.

Solving shortstop long term without spending huge dollars would be significant to our off season and future.  

Throw a Jimenez for Tatis offer at them and see if they'll bite. 😉

[djhutch]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

he doesn't have to get better to be a viable 4th OF. Right now he is a ~750 OPS player coming into his peak hitting years who can field all three OF spots and run a little when on the bases. What do we expect to have in a 4th OF?

I'd absolutely like to see what Hill can do longer term, but as a GM, in terms of downside risk as of this moment - Reyes is a safer bet than Hill.

I think Reyes has done all we've asked of him & then some .. I just don't know if there will be room once Greene comes up.  If Hill can stay healthy, he's one spot. Greene will not be brought up to be a bench player, I don't think, so that leaves Reyes to battle with Badoo & Cameron for the 4th spot.

[SoCalTiger]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Throw a Jimenez for Tatis offer at them and see if they'll bite. 😉

I get it that Abrams might bring more than Matt Manning + on the open market but my proposal is a bit more realistic than Jimenez for Tatis.

[Useful Idiot]

18 minutes ago, djhutch said:

 I don't think, so that leaves Reyes to battle with Badoo & Cameron for the 4th spot.

The way I expect it to play out, Reyes and Greene will compete for the 4th spot in spring training, whichever prevails, the other goes to Toledo.

A similar decision is merited at the trade deadline,  with Grossman potentially becoming a trade chip.

The wildcard being Hill. If he pans out then he's a keeper, but if he peters out,.. it's comforting to know we have a stand-in. It's great to have options.

[chasfh]

18 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

I get it that Abrams might bring more than Matt Manning + on the open market but my proposal is a bit more realistic than Jimenez for Tatis.

Just a bit! 😏

[RandyMarsh]

I wonder what it would take to get JP Crawford from the Ms? Id obviously much prefer one of the top FAs but if they end up going elsewhere I don't think Crawford would be a bad consolation. 

He's league average with the bat which might as well be Ted Williams compared to what we been throwing out there and has a plus glove. Still young enough where he has some room to grow, also doesnt hit FA till 2025.

For all those reasons he probably won't come real cheap but the Ms have some promising SS prospects so they be willing to deal him. 

[theroundsquare]

I think writing Baddoo into the OF in ink is probably a bit hasty.  As much as I like him and as good as he's been, he hasn't been as good in the second half as he was in the first, and at this point in his young career I don't think we have good reason to think that he won't be the player he's been in the second half rather than the one he was in teh first.  Maybe he'll adjust, maybe the league has figured him out for good, I don't think we know yet.  

[davidsb623]

Mize, Skubal or Manning will not be traded any time soon, for anyone.  Pitching wins championships and these three have shown awesome glimpses into the future.  

[Useful Idiot]

4 minutes ago, theroundsquare said:

I think writing Baddoo into the OF in ink is probably a bit hasty.  As much as I like him and as good as he's been, he hasn't been as good in the second half as he was in the first, and at this point in his young career I don't think we have good reason to think that he won't be the player he's been in the second half rather than the one he was in teh first.  Maybe he'll adjust, maybe the league has figured him out for good, I don't think we know yet.  

I wish he would either start swinging the bat like a lead-off hitter, or they would move him down in the order.  I understand he's a big strong guy and the fences appeal to him, but his insistence on being a power hitter is costing us runs, IMO.

[RandyMarsh]

Until Manning shows he is where he was pre shoulder injury Im not counting on him for anything. Im not sure if that is the cause but he simply hasn't been the same pitcher since 2019 and has struggled wherever he pitched. Whether it was for the intra squad stuff last summer, spring training, AAA or the majors he simply hasnt looked like the guy we thought he was going to be. The good news is the velo is still there but unfortunately that's about all that is there. 

[casimir]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

he doesn't have to get better to be a viable 4th OF. Right now he is a ~750 OPS player coming into his peak hitting years who can field all three OF spots and run a little when on the bases. What do we expect to have in a 4th OF?

I'd absolutely like to see what Hill can do longer term, but as a GM, in terms of downside risk as of this moment - Reyes is a safer bet than Hill.

Reyes is ~.700 OPS.

Interestingly he's got a fairly good BABIP.

I go back to Grossman & Greene as starters and Baddoo & Hill filling the roster.  Baddoo probably gets the majority of starts over Hill.  HIll has an elite skill set which can be helpful.  I'm not sure what Reyes' elite skill set.  BABIP?

[casimir]

2 hours ago, Useful Idiot said:

Personally, I believe he  is better than most give him credit for. Sometimes opportunity can be empowering. I hope that can be the case for him.   And I think waiting until next year's deadline to make a final determination is highly unlikely to interfere with  any championship window available to us,

He's had 4 MLB seasons, although in fairness, his first was as a rule 5 guy.

[gehringer_2]

20 minutes ago, casimir said:

Reyes is ~.700 OPS.

Interestingly he's got a fairly good BABIP.

I go back to Grossman & Greene as starters and Baddoo & Hill filling the roster.  Baddoo probably gets the majority of starts over Hill.  HIll has an elite skill set which can be helpful.  I'm not sure what Reyes' elite skill set.  BABIP?

The difference of opinion on Reyes is I think less about Reyes than Hill's bat. A lot of folks here seem pretty optimistic about it. I think the jury is still out if he can stay above 550 ops. Show me a consistent 700 even 675 OPS from Hill and I'll take him over Reyes, but even the best OF D is not worth too weak a bat. Kiermaier is the best defensive OF on the planet and D doesn't get his bat everyday PA with one of the smartest orgs in baseball.

Edited September 30, 2021 by gehringer_2

[Useful Idiot]

52 minutes ago, casimir said:

He's had 4 MLB seasons, although in fairness, his first was as a rule 5 guy.

You and I likely are not going to find common ground on Reyes, and I'm fine with that.

I guess I should point at his 2019 results coupled with what he's done in the second half of 2021, and insist what happend in between was the outlier impacted by the pandemic (as  seems to be a convenient way to explain away   failure for so many situations these days?)  But I won't. 

I'll simply insist that I believe the job is his to lose, and hope he makes the most of the opportunity.

I like a player who hit's 'em were they ain't!  

Edited September 30, 2021 by Useful Idiot

[sabretooth]

On 9/29/2021 at 3:26 PM, RandyMarsh said:

Lynn now suggesting the Tigers trade Mize in the offseason for bats. Listen Im not opposed to trading him just cause we know how fragile pitching is but I dont see how that necessarily makes us any better. It feels like robbing Peter to pay Paul. 

The only way I think it makes sense is if you truly believe Fetter is some sorta pitcher whisperer and you feel you can find guys for cheap that he can help get Mize like production from. 

We handed over 35 starts to hot garbage like Urena, Peralta, and another 30+ starts to guys who won't likely be around or in the rotation in 2022, including Boyd, Turnbull and Fulmer.  That's nearly 1/2 of our starts to guys who cannot possibly be counted on for quality starting pitching in 2022....and that's not even talking about the 30+ starts we gave to Manning and Alexander who we hope/expect to be decent or better in 2022.

.....and Henning thinks we have a SURPLUS of starting pitching to trade from?

We need some upwards development in Manning, Mize, and Alexander, some health luck, and at least TWO new quality starting pitchers to feel confident about contending in 2022.

Look, I get that Mize is a RHP who has not yet demonstrated the consistent ability to strike guys out enough to be an above-average pitcher....he needs to get his K's up to the 9/9 ratio or better to be worthy of a top 5 1st rounder.

However, at this point, his trade value would seem to be far below his potential value to the team.  Unless they are giving up on him, I say keep him and work on getting his FB into reliable plus territory.  The off-speed pitches (slider, splitter) seem to be there already.

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, theroundsquare said:

I think writing Baddoo into the OF in ink is probably a bit hasty.  As much as I like him and as good as he's been, he hasn't been as good in the second half as he was in the first, and at this point in his young career I don't think we have good reason to think that he won't be the player he's been in the second half rather than the one he was in teh first.  Maybe he'll adjust, maybe the league has figured him out for good, I don't think we know yet.  

Here are the limitations that I see:

Grossman is good. But he's not great. Not dynamic in any area. He has good plate discipline and gets on base... but only nominal power and not much BA. He's also 33 next year, so he's not on any upswing. His OBP, professionalism, bit-of-speed, and that he's a switch-hitter gives him PA's. But there are limitations in his profile.

Baddoo is dynamic. But struggles against lefties (.526 OPS versus .846 against righties), which suggests a platoon at this point, and is not as fluid in the field as you would think, nor has much of an arm for CF. Best in LF, but can cover CF if needed. Grossman should take 100% of his PA's against lefties at this point (.848 OPS against lefties versus .738 OPS against righties).

Hill is a dynamic centerfielder. But has trouble staying healthy. Not much BA, he does have a little pop in his bat but not enough for anyone to take notice. Very few PA's so far in MLB so he's unproven there. Same with on the basepaths... he has speed, but what's he going to do with it? In 139 AB's this year: .259 BA, 3 doubles 3 triples 3 HR's = .702 OPS. If he bumps that up to .750, and can stay healthy, that may = most of the CF PA's in 2022. If Hill sits some against tough righties and Baddoo takes those PA's, then Grossman can be the leftie bat in LF whilst Baddoo covers CF.

Greene is not coming up to MLB to be a 4th OF'er. Who the heck suggested that? If he comes up, he's a 90-95% starter. Maybe he gets some days off and Grossman plays instead... but 9 out of 10 games Greene is starting. IF Hill can hold onto CF, Greene is the starter in RF. If Hill can NOT hold onto CF, then Greene may take over as the starter there, and Grossman becomes a regular in RF.

At that point (if Hill is in rehab at AAA or something), then we're looking at giving another OF'er a chance, such as Cameron or Reyes.

Also, one other point: If Miggy is still on the team and playing 1B, any of the above bats except Hill can take over the DH spot for some PA's.

I'll let Hinch sort out all of the above... But on a guess, based on the above and between the 3 OF spots and some DH-duty: Baddoo ends up with 400 PA's, Grossman 550 PA's, Hill 350 PA's, and Greene 600 PA's...

[1984Echoes]

And if anyone takes note of what I just said:

I have Grossman as the 4th OF'er but with more PA's than either Baddoo or Hill..

[1984Echoes]

Oh, also... let me break that down just a bit more:

Baddoo 400 PA's (250 LF, 150 CF)

Grossman 550 PA's (300 LF, 150 DH, 100 RF)

Hill, 350 PA's, all CF.

Greene 600 PA's (500 RF, 50 CF, 50 DH)

Call up Reyes or Cameron and you can sprinkle a few more PA's in there...

[Tiger337]

32 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

You and I likely are not going to find common ground on Reyes, and I'm fine with that.

I guess I should point at his 2019 results coupled with what he's done in the second half of 2021, and insist what happend in between was the outlier impacted by the pandemic (as  seems to be a convenient way to explain away   failure for so many situations these days?)  But I won't. 

I'll simply insist that I believe the job is his to lose, and hope he makes the most of the opportunity.

I like a player who hit's 'em were they ain't!  

I will never take Reyes seriously as a starter until he can either draw walks or hit for power.  I am pretty sure he will never draw walks.  So, he'll have to hit for power which also seems unlikely at this point.  He is OK as a 4th outfielder.  

[Useful Idiot]

53 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

 He is OK as a 4th outfielder.  

He's a  number 4 outfielder on a team Where Robbie Grossman has the 4th highest salary on the team and will be due for a new contract at the end of next season.

  Sorry, but I remain to be convinced that the moneybags are willing to start spending.  Reyes is a perfect fit for who I think this team is.  

Edited September 30, 2021 by Useful Idiot