Religion

[MIguy]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

I’m not.  But I don’t begrudge those that are.

Look, it’s pretty simple.  Regardless of religion, don’t live life like an asshole.

Look, if people want to believe in fairy tales, more power to them.  Just don't think that gives you the right to force your beliefs down other peoples throats or that you have a right to preach your beliefs to people while getting offended when they share their thoughts on the matter.  

Edited December 1, 2023 by MIguy

[oblong]

7 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Not to dis Alberta's father, but you see in retrospect that his congregation was not built on community, or service, or even belief, though those things were probably there in the beginning. But as it exploded into a big church, in the end it was growing up instead based on the the self-validation of the membership. The worst trap of all for any clergman.

Absolutely. It’s why as a non Catholic I was still involved with the parish my wife grew up in. Service. I coached CYO basketball. ( I didn’t know ****.). I did scouts. I worked pancake breakfasts. I volunteered anywhere I could.  We ran the festivals. I could see the impact on the local community which is lower middle classs despite the hierarchy of the church itself and its backwards way there was still opportunity to be fulfilled.  You can control what you give and get out of it. I never converted because the threshold is high I think to convert. My wife as a lifelong Catholic can get past things but I can’t knowingly join when there’s obvious things I disagree with. But I can still help those who need it. And I did. 

[Tigeraholic1]

13 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I believe that all things are possible and that some things are unknowable.  I am an agnostic.  

I can respect that Lee. The idea that everything came from nothing like Athiest believe takes probably more faith in their belief than a religous person. 

[oblong]

Whatever it is is not within our knowledge to understand.  Mathematically it's very likely there's something like us out there in the depths.  When you see images from the Webb telecscope.... how can there not be?

 

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

I can respect that Lee. The idea that everything came from nothing like Athiest believe takes probably more faith in their belief than a religous person. 

The idea that everything in the Bible is correct when there is so little proof takes an incredible amount of faith.  I can not accept that without evidence and it stuns how many people accept it so easily.  However, the idea that there is no reason for our existence is really depressing to me.  One can say "Why should we even bother to try to do anything with our lives if God controls everything?" On the other hand, why should we try to do aything with our lives if our existence is meaningless?  The latter seems more dangerous to me.  I am most comfortable in my belief that people all over the world are connected in some way and that we should be kind to and respectful of one another and try to make the world a better place for all.  That takes a lot of faith in itself, and I don't know how we became connected nor think it's possible for me to know without some kind of revelation.  It's just my way of making sense of everything.     

[Tigeraholic1]

12 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

The idea that everything in the Bible is correct when there is so little proof takes an incredible amount of faith.  I can not accept that without evidence and it stuns how many people accept it so easily.  However, the idea that there is no reason for our existence is really depressing to me.  One can say "Why should we even bother to try to do anything with our lives if God controls everything?" On the other hand, why should we try to do aything with our lives if our existence is meaningless?  The latter seems more dangerous to me.  I am most comfortable in my belief that people all over the world are connected in some way and that we should be kind to and respectful of one another and try to make the world a better place for all.  That takes a lot of faith in itself, and I don't know how we became connected nor think it's possible for me to know without some kind of revelation.  It's just my way of making sense of everything.     

Agree 100% with proving everything in the Bible is factual. However there has been a number or artifacts and written documentation that lines up with people of the bible. Athiest have "faith" that the theory of big bang is factual and will argue with anyone who disagrees in the way a person of faith would defend their religion.

I listened to a comedian recently that argued the Athiest said we came from nothing and will return to nothing is basically what all religions faith is based on. 

[CMRivdogs]

42 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

The idea that everything in the Bible is correct when there is so little proof takes an incredible amount of faith.  I can not accept that without evidence and it stuns how many people accept it so easily.  However, the idea that there is no reason for our existence is really depressing to me.  One can say "Why should we even bother to try to do anything with our lives if God controls everything?" On the other hand, why should we try to do aything with our lives if our existence is meaningless?  The latter seems more dangerous to me.  I am most comfortable in my belief that people all over the world are connected in some way and that we should be kind to and respectful of one another and try to make the world a better place for all.  That takes a lot of faith in itself, and I don't know how we became connected nor think it's possible for me to know without some kind of revelation.  It's just my way of making sense of everything.     

Not to mention the several translations from the "original" Hebrew, Greek, Arabic, etc. How many edits were made to conform with the beliefs of the translators and rulers who commissioned them?

[Tigeraholic1]

4 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

Not to mention the several translations from the "original" Hebrew, Greek, Arabic, etc. How many edits were made to conform with the beliefs of the translators and rulers who commissioned them?

Until Martin Luther came around the bible was not even available to common folks. Mainly because most people could not read. He began printing and translating the bible. That was only 500 years ago. It has been manipultated for sure. 

[MIguy]

1 hour ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Agree 100% with proving everything in the Bible is factual. However there has been a number or artifacts and written documentation that lines up with people of the bible. Athiest have "faith" that the theory of big bang is factual and will argue with anyone who disagrees in the way a person of faith would defend their religion.

I listened to a comedian recently that argued the Athiest said we came from nothing and will return to nothing is basically what all religions faith is based on. 

So because the bible sprinkles in some confirmed people places and things, that means we need to give careful considerations to everything else contained within?   

Trying to equate a belief in science with a belief in god is not even close to being a valid comparison.  Science means never ending research, new discoveries and shifting acceptance of what we know and have yet to learn.  Religion means clinging tightly to beliefs first put on paper by people who were completely ignorant of the universe around them. 

[Tigeraholic1]

5 minutes ago, MIguy said:

So because the bible sprinkles in some confirmed people places and things, that means we need to give careful considerations to everything else contained within?   

Trying to equate a belief in science with a belief in god is not even close to being a valid comparison.  Science means never ending research, new discoveries and shifting acceptance of what we know and have yet to learn.  Religion means clinging tightly to beliefs first put on paper by people who were completely ignorant of the universe around them. 

This is why I did engage your last post. You are just itching for a fight. You hate religon, cool. 

[MIguy]

4 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

This is why I did engage your last post. You are just itching for a fight. You hate religon, cool. 

I could flip this right back around and say that you hate science, would that be fair?   

[Tigeraholic1]

3 minutes ago, MIguy said:

I could flip this right back around and say that you hate science, would that be fair?   

I actually love sceince. 

[Tigerbomb13]

17 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I believe that all things are possible and that some things are unknowable.  I am an agnostic.  

That’s my exact take too

[MIguy]

Just now, Tigeraholic1 said:

I actually love sceince. 

And yet you try to equate it with a belief in an omnipotent being that got bored one day and decided to create the universe.   Science can show a mountain of research and evidence to back up their theory of how the universe was created.  What can religion offer to back up their claim?

[Tigeraholic1]

2 minutes ago, MIguy said:

And yet you try to equate it with a belief in an omnipotent being that got bored one day and decided to create the universe.   Science can show a mountain of research and evidence to back up their theory of how the universe was created.  What can religion offer to back up their claim?

Theory, just like sceince nothing plus nothing created something. Yet I am not standing here with my finger in your face telling you that you are wrong.

 

 

[MIguy]

10 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Theory, just like sceince nothing plus nothing created something. Yet I am not standing here with my finger in your face telling you that you are wrong.

 

 

LOL and there it is, the one comment you just know is coming at some point when you attempt to debate a true believer.  Yeah, the Big Bang is a theory because science is willing to accept the fact they don't know everything.  Maybe the religious folks should start referring to their belief in god as a theory as well.  Would that be acceptable?  

Also, claiming that the Big Bang started with nothing shows your complete ignorance of what science has theorized.  Additionally, we are able to see the universe expanding along with the cosmic background radiation, both strong pieces of evidence that the universe began as scientists believe.   There's also something known as the mixture of elements, a theory that has been confirmed from the observation of some of the oldest galaxies and stars in the universe.  In total, there's a mountain of evidence that backs up the Big Bang.  

Here's your chance to present your evidence for the existence of a god.  Show us what you've got.  

[casimir]

59 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

This is why I did engage your last post. You are just itching for a fight. You hate religon, cool. 

He hates Austin Meadows, too.

[MIguy]

8 minutes ago, casimir said:

He hates Austin Meadows, too.

I saw him walking out of church a few years ago and the rest was history.

 

Oh and another thing that cracks me up about the true believers is how they'll try to argue that the big bang can't be true as it says that something was created out of nothing but are perfectly fine with accepting that their favorite sky wizard was just always here, created out of nothing.  

[casimir]

4 minutes ago, MIguy said:

I saw him walking out of church a few years ago and the rest was history.

 

Oh and another thing that cracks me up about the true believers is how they'll try to argue that the big bang can't be true as it says that something was created out of nothing but are perfectly fine with accepting that their favorite sky wizard was just always here, created out of nothing.  

Fairy tales.  Sky wizard.  You're intentionally being an asshole.  I'll type slower for you this time.  Don’t live life like an asshole. 

[Tigeraholic1]

Listen, My guy.... Sceintist still have the opinion that BB is a theory yes or no? Religon is a theory no? I have tried to respectable. I am not here tearing anyones theory down. Respect my opinon and as you see I respect yours. Geez......

 

[pfife]

Looks like ones own medicine doesn't taste good.   Lol 

[MIguy]

47 minutes ago, casimir said:

Fairy tales.  Sky wizard.  You're intentionally being an asshole.  I'll type slower for you this time.  Don’t live life like an asshole. 

So because I won't play along and accept ridiculous fairytales as being possible, that makes me the asshole?

Sure, okay.  

Funny how the religious think they're free to say anything they want and judge people who don't follow their beliefs but us atheists are required to be respectful to them at all times.  The hypocrisy isn't a bug, it's a feature.  

[1984Echoes]

5 hours ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

I can respect that Lee. The idea that everything came from nothing like Atheist believe takes probably more faith in their belief than a religious person. 

There's some hypocrasy in here...

Replace "Big Bang" with "God" or whatever else is the "something" that a person could believe in (a lot of people have turned away from the belief in a "god" but still believe in "something")... and what do you have? Nothing created something. 

50,000 years ago when we were hunters and gatherers and (modern homo sapiens is 250,000 years old, so it took 200K years to...) came up with the concept of the "Happy Hunting Grounds", and all the itinerant spirits, gods, origin stories that came along with that, etc., etc.. I can understand it. We didn't know anything so we created these stories.

Bu that's what "God" is. A man-made creation/ created story. I mean, religious believers understand that this is true, right? That ALL creation stories/ religions are MAN-MADE.  That YOU created "God" (or your ancesters 2,000, 3,000, 50,000 years ago... whenever applies) out of NOTHING. That we KNOW that God = Nothing.

So in effect, YOU are creating Something (Universe) out of NOTHING (God).

Just so you understand that perspective.

No disrespect, believe in whatever you want to... But I give absolutely zero credence to anything "God" related. Maybe there's some good things out of religion, but there are also TERRIBLE things out of religion (murderous pogroms, murderous crusades, murderous genocide, papal decrees to enslave Native Americans, Christian complicity in the Jewish Holocaust, Inquisitions, and modern-day Christian youth gangs that beat to death homosexuals or other "undesirables" that they don't like...

 

4 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

The idea that everything in the Bible is correct when there is so little proof takes an incredible amount of faith.  I can not accept that without evidence and it stuns how many people accept it so easily.  

Point.

 

4 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

However, the idea that there is no reason for our existence is really depressing to me.  One can say "Why should we even bother to try to do anything with our lives if God controls everything?" On the other hand, why should we try to do anything with our lives if our existence is meaningless? 

Let me offer an alternative:

Your life has whatever meaning you assign to it.

IE: If you wish to become a "pillar" of your community, and do all sorts of volunteering and service, then you've just added meaning to your life. Self-defined.

If you decided to become an Astro-Physicist and work for Space-X because you believe it is important to colonize Mars... then you've just added this meaning to your life. Self-defined.

If you decide that it's most important to be a good father and you do so, and raise a family accordingly... then you've just added this meaning to your life. Self-defined.

You DON'T need someone else to define your life. Or the meaning of your life. Real or imagined. YOU get to define the meaning of your own life.

Personally, I don't see what's so hard about that.

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by 1984Echoes

[Tigeraholic1]

8 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

There's some hypocrasy in here...

Replace "Big Bang" with "God" or whatever else is the "something" that a person could believe in (a lot of people have turned away from the belief in a "god" but still believe in "something")... and what do you have? Nothing created something. 

50,000 years ago when we were hunters and gatherers and (modern homo sapiens is 250,000 years old, so it took 200K years to...) came up with the concept of the "Happy Hunting Grounds", and all the itinerant spirits, gods, origin stories, etc., etc.. I can understand it. We didn't know anything so we created these stories.

Bu that's what "God" is. A man-made creation/ created story. I mean, religious believers understand that this is true, right? That ALL creation stories/ religions are MAN-MADE.  That YOU created "God" (or your ancesters 2,000, 3,000, 50,000 years ago... whenever applies) out of NOTHING. That we KNOW that God = Nothing.

So in effect, YOU are creating Something (Universe) out of NOTHING (God).

Just so you understand that perspective.

No disrespect, believe in whatever you want to... But I give absolutely zero credence to anything "God" related. Maybe there's some good things out of religion, but there are also TERRIBLE things out of religion (murderous pogroms, murderous crusades, murderous genocide, papal decrees to enslave Native Americans, Christian complicity in the Jewish Holocaust, Inquisitions, and modern-day Christian youth gangs that beat to death homosexuals or other "undesirables" that they don't like...

 

Point.

 

Let me offer an alternative:

Your life has whatever meaning you assign to it.

IE: If you wish to become a "pillar" of your community, and do all sorts of volunteering and service, then you've just added meaning to your life. Self-defined.

If you decided to become an Astro-Physicist and work for Space-X because you believe it is important to colonize Mars... then you've just added this meaning to your life. Self-defined.

If you decide that it's most important to be a good father and you do so, and raise a family accordingly... then you've just added this meaning to your life. Self-defined.

You DON'T need someone else to define your life. Or the meaning of your life. Real or imagined. YOU get to define the meaning of your own life.

Personally, I don't see what's so hard about that.

Well said my friend. We can all agree to disagree. 

[1984Echoes]

Yep.

I take nothing from my Christian friends... they have their own perspectives on life.

Funny thing is, in New Jersey, I am surrounded by Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, and many other beliefs or non-beliefs. It would be insane (or lonely) to just lash out and denigrate everyone based on their beliefs, or anything else, so... 

When it comes to religion, I am not a bigot. I believe there ARE religious bigots ("if you don't believe what I believe then I HATE you"...), which I tend to avoid. I don't care what anyone does or does not believe in, I only care that a person is a good dude, or gal. At some point, if I want to hold onto a friendship, and we're at a point of contention...

It has to get to agree to disagree when it comes to that...