Religion

[Tigeraholic1]

31 minutes ago, MIguy said:

But what you're attempting to do is equate the two as if they are somehow equally as valid.  People dismiss scientific evidence with faith and then walk away as if they've won the debate.  Simple fact here, all of the evidence points to one side being right and the other being wrong.  If people want to bury their head in the sand, that's their right, but I just wish they would stop being so confident in their ignorance. 

I believe the bbt to be pretty factual. The key is what caused it. Evolution happened/ happening it makes scientific sense. Most logical folks believe science. Everything before this is the debatable point. I could post videos like you did supporting intelligent design. This will not change your opinion (if you even took the time to view it). I have faith just like you have faith in what you believe. Did you really think debating in a sports sub forum would lead to individual faith to suddenly change? You came in here with a chip on your shoulder. You mocked, called names and posted weird pictures of Jesus riding a T-Rex. The nerve to think Jesus was a Lions fan even, ha!

I hope someday, one of us finds the truth and the first thing they do is come here and make a post saying: Ha! I told you all I was right!
 

 

[oblong]

59 minutes ago, MIguy said:

But what you're attempting to do is equate the two as if they are somehow equally as valid.  People dismiss scientific evidence with faith and then walk away as if they've won the debate.  Simple fact here, all of the evidence points to one side being right and the other being wrong.  If people want to bury their head in the sand, that's their right, but I just wish they would stop being so confident in their ignorance. 

When have I dismissed scientific evidence?  Had anyone here?  

[MIguy]

52 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

I believe the bbt to be pretty factual. The key is what caused it. Evolution happened/ happening it makes scientific sense. Most logical folks believe science. Everything before this is the debatable point. I could post videos like you did supporting intelligent design. This will not change your opinion (if you even took the time to view it). I have faith just like you have faith in what you believe. Did you really think debating in a sports sub forum would lead to individual faith to suddenly change? You came in here with a chip on your shoulder. You mocked, called names and posted weird pictures of Jesus riding a T-Rex. The nerve to think Jesus was a Lions fan even, ha!

I hope someday, one of us finds the truth and the first thing they do is come here and make a post saying: Ha! I told you all I was right!
 

 

I don't have a chip on my shoulder, I'm just sick of religious people believing in nonsense and yet acting like they have every right to spew their beliefs at will.  If they can't take a little bit of mockery, they have the option of keeping their mouth shut about their silly fairy tales.

You can find examples from most posters on this forum, probably even you, mocking people for something they believe.  Spare me acting like religion is the one area where we have to be respectful and accept the opinions of the the other side.   

[ewsieg]

5 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

They ARE brain experts.

Yes, neuroscientists are also brain experts.

But do you believe psychologists, especially RESEARCH psychologists... have NOT studied encephelograms, MRI's, or any other brain study on neural activity, neural net patterns, speech and memory sections of the brain, or even conducted those tests or studies themselves, in order to study their OWN field and all of the issues, idiosyncrasies, etc... of how the human mind works?

I mean, seriously... think about that for a sec...

(Sorry about the all-caps... but I'm still emphasizing key words or key issues, as is my habit...).

 

ok, so you're looking at an extremely high level.  G2 was talking more about the chemistry of the brain.  Psychologists would know less about that than Psychiatrist and even psychiatrist tend to know more about how different medicines can assist in dealing with mental illness, they would be considered experts in how certain drugs assist in dealing with mental illness, but even they are not in the labs producing the medicines in the first place as that's not their expertise.

As for what G2 was talking about, how humans are able to hold and interpret thoughts and how our brain deals with them, psychologists might be good at helping a person understand those thoughts, but they aren't delving into how the chemical reactions inside the brain are related, if at all, to how a person deals with things. 

[Tigeraholic1]

8 minutes ago, MIguy said:

I don't have a chip on my shoulder, I'm just sick of religious people believing in nonsense and yet acting like they have every right to spew their beliefs at will.  If they can't take a little bit of mockery, they have the option of keeping their mouth shut about their silly fairy tales.

You can find examples from most posters on this forum, probably even you, mocking people for something they believe.  Spare me acting like religion is the one area where we have to be respectful and accept the opinions of the the other side.   

Bottom line, your an angry Elf.

[oblong]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

Kant wrote a great treatise arguing that you couldn't resolve transcendental questions via empirical knowledge (Critique of Pure Reason), but then later shot his philosophical standing with posterity in the foot by trying to make an exception to his own prior conclusions in an attempt to prove the existence of God with some logical jujitsu starting from the Golden Rule (Critique of Practical Reason).

The first work is pretty famous. You never hear much about the second. 😉

I wrote a paper in college on the subject and do not recall the second Kant. Definitely the first. 

[oblong]

12 minutes ago, MIguy said:

I don't have a chip on my shoulder, I'm just sick of religious people believing in nonsense and yet acting like they have every right to spew their beliefs at will.  If they can't take a little bit of mockery, they have the option of keeping their mouth shut about their silly fairy tales.

You can find examples from most posters on this forum, probably even you, mocking people for something they believe.  Spare me acting like religion is the one area where we have to be respectful and accept the opinions of the the other side.   

They have the right to spew it and you have the right to not read it. Bitching about what others believe and about them expressing it definitely gives off a “chip on the shoulder” vibe.  Your unwillingness to simply be exposed to something you won’t agree with or like is what is closed minded. 

[MIguy]

10 minutes ago, oblong said:

They have the right to spew it and you have the right to not read it. Bitching about what others believe and about them expressing it definitely gives off a “chip on the shoulder” vibe.  Your unwillingness to simply be exposed to something you won’t agree with or like is what is closed minded. 

Dude, you mock people more than anyone on this site.  I don't care in the least that you're triggered by me mocking your beliefs.  You can either deal with it or find somewhere else to hang out.  

[gehringer_2]

39 minutes ago, MIguy said:

Dude, you mock people more than anyone on this site.  I don't care in the least that you're triggered by me mocking your beliefs.  You can either deal with it or find somewhere else to hang out.  

Questionable strategy to challenge a mod to leave the site. 🙄

Edited December 6, 2023 by gehringer_2

[ewsieg]

I learned about 'soaking' today, which my guess was one Mormon teenager that convinced his naive girlfriend this was a thing or possibly just joked about it.  The thread is pretty funny, yet you have a ton of "Miguy" type people that clearly think most Mormon teenagers do this and go to far with it.  As the thread gets going, you tend to realize the joke is on the anti-religion folks that actually fall for this stuff, not on the story itself.

[Jim Cowan]

48 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Questionable strategy to challenge a mod to leave the site. 🙄

You're struggling to understand it.

[smr-nj]

3 hours ago, MIguy said:

Dude, you mock people more than anyone on this site.  I don't care in the least that you're triggered by me mocking your beliefs.  You can either deal with it or find somewhere else to hang out.  

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
 

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Questionable strategy to challenge a mod to leave the site. 🙄

Indeed. 😂

1 hour ago, Jim Cowan said:

You're struggling to understand it.

Tis a puzzlement. 😁

 

 

[romad1]

wakes up...scans board...groans

 

[romad1]

Reading Ian Toll's very good WWII in the Pacific series.  Today being December 7 reminds me that the wartime leaders of Japan manipulated their people using what they claimed was in Shinto and in Bushido to conduct suicide attacks.  Toll points out that the concept of suicide attacks was never in their tradition.  It was only after they lost their advantage in air power and the US industrial might was producing naval, air and ground forces far surpassing by leaps and bounds the Japanese military that they cynically rewrote their traditions and convinced everyone to go along with suicide attacks.  Since the people were completely cowed by propaganda and total surveillance of their every word and the military had taken over the lives of their children there was no way to resist -- even among military officers who knew it was all bunk.

This gets me back to the original point about theocracy being in harness to kleptocracy.

[chasfh]

On 12/5/2023 at 8:01 AM, gehringer_2 said:

??. I think if there is any overall argument it's that origin questions are pretty pointless no matter what your theological perspective. The two questions: "Where did the big bang come from?"; and "Where did god come from?" are exactly equal and neither theology nor science can answer either. The bottom line is that there are unanswerable questions no matter what you do or don't choose to believe about them.

I thought you were going somewhere with this about pointlessness that I was going to totally agree with before you took a sharp 90 degree turn to someplace else.

To me, it's pointless to speculate on the beginnings of the universe at all because it doesn't ... ahem ... matter as it relates to where we are now, or where we're going. I'm no saying speculating on it is not fun, or that we shouldn't do it. In fact, speculating on it is fun, and we should do it. But even so, there's no point to it, because in the end, who cares? Whether some big bang happened billions of years ago or some hairy thunderer waved his hand thousands of years ago, either way, here we are. To whatever degree gods exist and in whatever form, do they really care which creation story you buy? is the comfort of our eternity really going to turn on that? Is it OK if I don't have a real opinion about it either way? Because I have roughly as much an opinion about this as I do about which managers should go to the Hall of Fame.

Seems to me the only practical outcome to the debate about it is that people can go to war with each other over it.

 

[oblong]

The quest for knowledge is a gift to us they we should pursue.  For many religious people it's a threat because it contradicts their truth.  Not all.  Many religions seek those answers for the right reasons.  But some don't want people to know because it's easier to oppress them with your own version.  If for centuries you have dictated certain things because it's in the Bible and the Bible is infallible and you start to crack that then their message becomes untenable.   I'm speaking of the hardcore fundamentalist evangelicals.  They don't bother to debate certain things because their interpretation of the Bible is clear.  Growing up I heard silly things like races should be kept separate, they shouldn't mix.  Beards were wrong. tattoos were wrong.  Earrings were wrong.  Rock music, even something as simple as electric guitars and heavy drums were wrong. Beer was wrong.   40 years later through social media I get a peek into that world again and many of those barriers are rightfully gone.  But I so want to ask these people who I haven't cared about, nor them me, in that time since graduation... "What changed?  I see your daughter married a black fella.  You said that was wrong in 1985.  The male teachers have beards and goatees.  You said that was wrong in 1985.  What changed?"

 

 

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I thought you were going somewhere with this about pointlessness that I was going to totally agree with before you took a sharp 90 degree turn to someplace else.

To me, it's pointless to speculate on the beginnings of the universe at all because it doesn't ... ahem ... matter as it relates to where we are now, or where we're going. I'm no saying speculating on it is not fun, or that we shouldn't do it. In fact, speculating on it is fun, and we should do it. But even so, there's no point to it, because in the end, who cares? Whether some big bang happened billions of years ago or some hairy thunderer waved his hand thousands of years ago, either way, here we are. To whatever degree gods exist and in whatever form, do they really care which creation story you buy? is the comfort of our eternity really going to turn on that? Is it OK if I don't have a real opinion about it either way? Because I have roughly as much an opinion about this as I do about which managers should go to the Hall of Fame.

Seems to me the only practical outcome to the debate about it is that people can go to war with each other over it.

 

On a related note, the US high energy physics folks are in the midst of some kind of periodic review of what they want to ask the Feds to fund and the hot item on the wish list now is a Muon collider that will get to 100 TeV.  I could only laugh at the quote by one of the lead guys when he said that this kind of work was important because we all need/want to know *why* we are here (emphasis mine of course). Guess again fella.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

The quest for knowledge is a gift to us they we should pursue.  For many religious people it's a threat because it contradicts their truth.  Not all.  Many religions seek those answers for the right reasons.  But some don't want people to know because it's easier to oppress them with your own version.  If for centuries you have dictated certain things because it's in the Bible and the Bible is infallible and you start to crack that then their message becomes untenable.   I'm speaking of the hardcore fundamentalist evangelicals.  They don't bother to debate certain things because their interpretation of the Bible is clear.  Growing up I heard silly things like races should be kept separate, they shouldn't mix.  Beards were wrong. tattoos were wrong.  Earrings were wrong.  Rock music, even something as simple as electric guitars and heavy drums were wrong. Beer was wrong.   40 years later through social media I get a peek into that world again and many of those barriers are rightfully gone.  But I so want to ask these people who I haven't cared about, nor them me, in that time since graduation... "What changed?  I see your daughter married a black fella.  You said that was wrong in 1985.  The male teachers have beards and goatees.  You said that was wrong in 1985.  What changed?"

It's not for nothing that the story is that Eve offered Adam fruit not from an apple tree, but rather, from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They were not supposed to know things, and when the sought knowledge, they lost their immortality. Therefore, you can save your own soul by not knowing things.

[MIguy]

As the scientific evidence continues to grow in support of the Big Bang, the church will end up doing exactly what they did with evolution.   They'll say that people are free to believe whatever they want but to remember that whatever happened, it was god's work.  We could end up with indisputable proof of the Big Bang and the religious flock would say that it was god who lit the fuse.  

[gehringer_2]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

It's not for nothing that the story is that Eve offered Adam fruit not from an apple tree, but rather, from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They were not supposed to know things, and when the sought knowledge, they lost their immortality. Therefore, you can save your own soul by not knowing things.

To me the story of 'the Fall' is maybe the most interesting in the entire Bible. So many possible ways to unpack it.

[chasfh]

Just now, MIguy said:

As the scientific evidence continues to grow in support of the Big Bang, the church will end up doing exactly what they did with evolution.   They'll say that people are free to believe whatever they want but to remember that whatever happened, it was god's work.  We could end up with indisputable proof of the Big Bang and the religious flock would say that it was god who lit the fuse.  

Which is fine, let them believe what they want, as long as it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, MIguy said:

the church

again - there is no such single entity. There are many churches -  many of them don't regard science as a subject of theological concern at all so they have no need or interest taking 'official' positions to accept or deny any of it. If you have a particular church with a particular doctrinal stance in mind, you should say who you are talking about if you care to be accurate.

[Tiger337]

6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Which is fine, let them believe what they want, as long as it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

I don't know about broken legs, but there is good chance they'll try to pick your pocket.  

[chasfh]

4 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I don't know about broken legs, but there is good chance they'll try to pick your pocket.  

Well, then, that would be a problem. Removing that problem in specific cases removes my concern.

[MIguy]

20 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Which is fine, let them believe what they want, as long as it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

But see, it's not fine, that's the problem.  Some of these people end up in Congress and use their ridiculous beliefs and fairy tales to try to govern how the rest of us are allowed to live our lives.