Ancient Fan Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 Motown, your impression is flawed. They need prayer and discipline from their father. Big problem in America today, too many kids without a loving father. pfife, there are some sins that are beyond forgiveness (the unforgivable sin). This does not apply to homosexuality. I recommend the following link. I think it explains the situation very well. https://www.gotquestions.org/homosexuality-death-penalty.html Happy to answer all questions. I am far from an expert. If I don't know the answer, I'll direct you to a person that can correctly explain the Christian belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 4 minutes ago, Ancient Fan said: Motown, your impression is flawed. They need prayer and discipline from their father. Big problem in America today, too many kids without a loving father. pfife, there are some sins that are beyond forgiveness (the unforgivable sin). This does not apply to homosexuality. I recommend the following link. I think it explains the situation very well. https://www.gotquestions.org/homosexuality-death-penalty.html Happy to answer all questions. I am far from an expert. If I don't know the answer, I'll direct you to a person that can correctly explain the Christian belief. I think your posts while I disagree are good. Thank you for posting. I think the the metaphor you made about parenting was good but I'm just not sure how we can apply that to items the bible says people should be killed over. For a non-christian such as myself (although a confirmed Lutheran), the link is a little thick to reason through. Is this paragraph from your link saying, essentially, we are not bound by old testament b/c of the new testament? Quote It is crucial to understand that Jesus fulfilled the Law (Matthew 5:17–18). Romans 10:4 says that Christ is the end of the Law. Ephesians 2:15 says that Jesus set aside the Law with its commands and regulations. Galatians 3:25 says, now that faith has come, we are no longer under the guardianship of the Law. The civil and ceremonial aspects of the Old Testament Law were for an earlier time. The Law’s purpose was completed with the perfect and complete sacrifice of Jesus Christ. So, no, the Bible does not command that homosexuals should be put to death in this day and age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, Tiger337 said: The question was whether Jesus mentioned homosexuality. I know that many Christians believe that the Bible was dictated by God/Jesus, but some agnostic Christians see Jesus as a person separate from the Bible. It seems that whenever this debate has come up, at least when I've observed it, there's a real lack of ability to understand the context of the Old and New Testaments. And the fact that Jesus, through his sacrifice on the Cross and thereafter, gave himself up as a sacrifice in order to establish a New Covenant. https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9216 Quote The New Testament gives us the key that interprets the whole of the Old Testament. It is our Lord Jesus Christ who offers the perfect sacrifice, the perfect worship that fulfills all worship, fulfilling the original plan of creation and making it possible for the rest of us to do so as well. He accomplishes this end not by observing Levitical sacrifices with fastidious correctness,9 but by substituting himself as the sinless victim, the Paschal Lamb. As Cardinal Ratzinger (ie. Pope Benedict XVI) beautifully says: Quote The Shepherd [of Israel] has become a Lamb. The vision of the lamb that appears in the story of Isaac, the lamb that gets entangled in the undergrowth and ransoms the son, has become a reality; the Lord became a Lamb; he allows himself to be bound and sacrificed, to deliver us.10 In so doing he brings to an end the entire sacrificial system contained in Leviticus. He is the reality that the symbols of the Jewish religion point to. He is the agent in whose person and by whose action fallen human beings can resume their rightful place as royal priests who bring the world back to its original purpose, who help the universe achieve its own destiny. That is what is at stake! By no means am I a biblical expert, but this is pretty central to how I was taught as a Catholic. It doesn't make the Bible contradictory, per se, but it's more that there's a narrative arc to the text that often gets lost when people just cherry pick verses from certain books to apply to contemporary politicial issues Edited June 10, 2022 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 14 minutes ago, Ancient Fan said: Motown, your impression is flawed. They need prayer and discipline from their father. Big problem in America today, too many kids without a loving father. pfife, there are some sins that are beyond forgiveness (the unforgivable sin). This does not apply to homosexuality. I recommend the following link. I think it explains the situation very well. https://www.gotquestions.org/homosexuality-death-penalty.html Happy to answer all questions. I am far from an expert. If I don't know the answer, I'll direct you to a person that can correctly explain the Christian belief. That won't be necessary. I went to Catholic school from K-12. Thankfully I made it through unmolested. I think it was around 3rd grade I realized it was a cult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Fan Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 22 minutes ago, pfife said: I think your posts while I disagree are good. Thank you for posting. I think the the metaphor you made about parenting was good but I'm just not sure how we can apply that to items the bible says people should be killed over. For a non-christian such as myself (although a confirmed Lutheran), the link is a little thick to reason through. Is this paragraph from your link saying, essentially, we are not bound by old testament b/c of the new testament? Please remember that the laws were given only to the Israelites. This was, for the most part, for their safety. The rest of the laws and punishments were to let the people know that God is the Creator and he views certain behavior as evil. This is where most people fail to connect. Most people think God has no right to dictate behavior on his creation. That's because most don't believe there is a God or that he has anymore say in the matter. The Bible says 100% opposite. So, it really boils down to... do you believe there is a God or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Fan Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 34 minutes ago, pfife said: I think your posts while I disagree are good. Thank you for posting. I think the the metaphor you made about parenting was good but I'm just not sure how we can apply that to items the bible says people should be killed over. For a non-christian such as myself (although a confirmed Lutheran), the link is a little thick to reason through. Is this paragraph from your link saying, essentially, we are not bound by old testament b/c of the new testament? Pretty much, this is true as stated previously. There are "laws" that still apply to everyone, such as the 10 commandments but remember the greatest commandment is to "love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself". Matthew 22: 35-40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 Just now, Ancient Fan said: Pretty much, this is true as stated previously. There are "laws" that still apply to everyone, such as the 10 commandments but remember the greatest commandment is to "love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself". Matthew 22: 35-40 My neighbors are Muslims. Do I still l love them as myself? What if they are gay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Fan Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 33 minutes ago, mtutiger said: It seems that whenever this debate has come up, at least when I've observed it, there's a real lack of ability to understand the context of the Old and New Testaments. And the fact that Jesus, through his sacrifice on the Cross and thereafter, gave himself up as a sacrifice in order to establish a New Covenant. https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9216 By no means am I a biblical expert, but this is pretty central to how I was taught as a Catholic. It doesn't make the Bible contradictory, per se, but it's more that there's a narrative arc to the text that often gets lost when people just cherry pick verses from certain books to apply to contemporary politicial issues "gave himself up as a sacrifice in order to establish a New Covenant." Not to establish a new covenant, but to provide a way to God because of our sins. Because of our sins, we cannot approach God. Jesus died on the cross to atone for our sins, he placed all our sins, past present and future on himself so that if we accept his sacrifice, it will clear a path to God. If we refuse to accept His gift we are doomed to spend eternity in Hell. The new covenant is just his promise to do what he said his sacrifice would accomplish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Fan Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 42 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: That won't be necessary. I went to Catholic school from K-12. Thankfully I made it through unmolested. I think it was around 3rd grade I realized it was a cult. You will have to give me your definition of a cult please. People assign their definition to many organizations, both religious and secular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: My neighbors are Muslims. Do I still l love them as myself? What if they are gay? And do they have the right to exist? Bringing it back to the "patch" issue (which prompted the creation of this thread), a lot of why pride month exists is because it is a class of people that historically has faced discrimination and hardship in the American experience. Not unlike Black Americans or Hispanics, who also have months dedicated to their experience. I'm sure this will be seen as namby pamby liberalism to some, but as I see it, regardless of whether I agree with the lifestyle or whether my religion condones it or not, I don't see why it is controversial to believe that, here on earth, gay people have the right to live with the expectation of not being discriminated against. And going against that seems like just another way to force my religion onto others. Edited June 10, 2022 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Fan Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 11 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: My neighbors are Muslims. Do I still l love them as myself? What if they are gay? As mentioned in the other forum, my nextdoor neighbors are homosexual. I still care for them very much. They are very good neighbors but God says they are sinners and have no place with him. If they repent of their sins, they will be forgiven. That is a promise as stated in the Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Fan Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 2 minutes ago, mtutiger said: And do they have the right to exist? Bringing it back to the "patch" issue (which prompted the creation of this thread), a lot of why pride month exists is because it is a class of people that historically has faced discrimination and hardship in the American experience. Not unlike Black Americans or Hispanics, who also have months dedicated to their experience. I'm sure this will be seen as namby pamby liberalism to some, but as I see it, regardless of whether I agree with the lifestyle or whether my religion condones it or not, I don't see why it is controversial to believe that, here on earth, gay people have the right to live with the expectation of not being discriminated against. And going against that seems like just another way to force my religion onto others. I would never force "my religion" on you or anyone else, even if I could. You are asking questions of a Christian and I am trying to answer you as best as I can. The color of your skin as far as I know, is not a sin. Some have taken a portion of the Bible and tried to use that as a means to subugate black people. Discrimination exists all over the world, by all people, regardless of color of their skin. According to God, homosexuality is a sin. If you are going to excuse homosexuality because its a part of their nature, then we need to excuse rapists, murderes, cleptomaniacs etc, because its in their nature. All are sins according to God's word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Ancient Fan said: According to God, homosexuality is a sin. If you are going to excuse homosexuality because its a part of their nature, then we need to excuse rapists, murderes, cleptomaniacs etc, because its in their nature. All are sins according to God's word. I guess I'm not of the view that believing that homosexuals should be able to live free from discrimination and without fear of prejudice and violence for how they live on earth really matters in terms of one's value judgment on the lifestyle itself. Edited June 10, 2022 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 26 minutes ago, Ancient Fan said: I would never force "my religion" on you or anyone else, even if I could. You are asking questions of a Christian and I am trying to answer you as best as I can. The color of your skin as far as I know, is not a sin. Some have taken a portion of the Bible and tried to use that as a means to subugate black people. Discrimination exists all over the world, by all people, regardless of color of their skin. According to God, homosexuality is a sin. If you are going to excuse homosexuality because its a part of their nature, then we need to excuse rapists, murderes, cleptomaniacs etc, because its in their nature. All are sins according to God's word. Rapists, murders and robbers hurt other people. They need to be punished primarily to protect us from their further actions. Gays don't hurt anyone by being gay. It's just a prejudice that some people have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Ancient Fan said: I would never force "my religion" on you or anyone else, even if I could. You are asking questions of a Christian and I am trying to answer you as best as I can. The color of your skin as far as I know, is not a sin. Some have taken a portion of the Bible and tried to use that as a means to subugate black people. Discrimination exists all over the world, by all people, regardless of color of their skin. According to God, homosexuality is a sin. If you are going to excuse homosexuality because its a part of their nature, then we need to excuse rapists, murderes, cleptomaniacs etc, because its in their nature. All are sins according to God's word. So as science increases its understanding that sexual drive and gender expression is just as genetically conditioned and just as possibly genetically independent of one another as skin color and stature, how does that inform your view? Do you just deny the science? Or believe that God created people sloppily? Or that he deliberately curses people with bodies that don't match their brains according to conventional or majority outcome? If Christ preached so that people may have abundant life, how does that square with a social/religious or legal regimes that denies millions of people the opportunity to have meaningful relationships given the nature of their individual creation? Edited June 10, 2022 by gehringer_2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 39 minutes ago, Ancient Fan said: I would never force "my religion" on you or anyone else, even if I could. You are asking questions of a Christian and I am trying to answer you as best as I can. The color of your skin as far as I know, is not a sin. Some have taken a portion of the Bible and tried to use that as a means to subugate black people. Discrimination exists all over the world, by all people, regardless of color of their skin. According to God, homosexuality is a sin. If you are going to excuse homosexuality because its a part of their nature, then we need to excuse rapists, murderes, cleptomaniacs etc, because its in their nature. All are sins according to God's word. What do you mean "excuse"? Are you talking about laws and customs? That is where the problem exists. We don't excuse rapists, murderers, and cleptomaniacs because your God tells us we don't excuse them. We don't excuse them because they are committing crimes that exist outside the establishment or existence of any religion. I don't need a God, a Bible, a Koran, or any other religious teaching to tell me those things are wrong. Homosexuality is not a crime. It may be morally wrong according to your beliefs but your beliefs stay with you and nobody else has to abide by them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Fan Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Tiger337 said: Rapists, murders and robbers hurt other people. They need to be punished primarily to protect us from their further actions. Gays don't hurt anyone by being gay. It's just a prejudice that some people have. Your fight is with God, not with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 1 minute ago, Ancient Fan said: Your fight is with God, not with me. I am using the logic which you would say that God gave me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 1 minute ago, Ancient Fan said: Your fight is with God, not with me. Do you have a phone number or website for God where I can leave a complaint? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Fan Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: So as science increases its understanding that sexual drive and gender expression is just as genetically conditioned and just as possibly genetically independent of one another as skin color and stature, how does that inform your view? Do you just deny the science? Or believe that God created people sloppily? Or that he deliberately curses people with bodies that don't match their brains according to conventional or majority outcome? If Christ preached so that people may have abundant life, how does that square with a social/religious or legal regimes that denies millions of people the opportunity to have meaningful relationships given the nature of their individual creation? Having lived for nearly 80 years, I have come to believe we all are born with a curse of one type or another (nothing in the Bible to substantiate this belief). It's what we do about this curse that will determine our worthiness in God's eyes. Most choose to follow the path of least resistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 and until about 50 years ago many religious people thought color of skin and gender would have been one of those curses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Fan Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 1 hour ago, oblong said: What do you mean "excuse"? Are you talking about laws and customs? That is where the problem exists. We don't excuse rapists, murderers, and cleptomaniacs because your God tells us we don't excuse them. We don't excuse them because they are committing crimes that exist outside the establishment or existence of any religion. I don't need a God, a Bible, a Koran, or any other religious teaching to tell me those things are wrong. Homosexuality is not a crime. It may be morally wrong according to your beliefs but your beliefs stay with you and nobody else has to abide by them. Absolutely correct! You are allowed to make your own decisions, right or wrong. Unfortunately, the opposite is not true. The lgbt community is constantly sueing Christian organizations and believers to accept their beliefs or suffer many hardships. Doesn't seem all have the right to their own beliefs without discrimination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Fan Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 2 minutes ago, oblong said: and until about 50 years ago many religious people thought color of skin and gender would have been one of those curses. Unfortunely, it's still believed by some "christians as well as others". Notice the little "c". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 Is this an implication that being gay is a curse? 5 minutes ago, oblong said: and until about 50 years ago many religious people thought color of skin and gender would have been one of those curses. Being left-handed was also a curse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Fan Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 17 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Do you have a phone number or website for God where I can leave a complaint? I can't promise a reply, try P.R.A.Y.E.R. No area code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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