Religion

[ewsieg]

On 9/19/2024 at 8:33 AM, CMRivdogs said:

They claim the reasoning of offering the “alternative” schools is to offset the “poor quality” public schools in some communities.

What really happens is the communities that need really need the money to improve the quality of education get shafted when the school funds get moved around.

Funny since the era the MAGA’s want to “return to” private schools, both religious and secular, were paid for by private funds.

True to a point, but we can see the reverse in examples all across the country where inner city schools get more support than others and still didn't improve the quality of education. 

I don't know the details on the Ohio bill, but I've never had problems with public funds going to private schools to assist with education.  I don't want public funds going to fund abortions, yet to me, it's still important for Planned Parenthood to get public fund for all the other benefits it provides.  If a religious school agrees to spend the money it receives from the public on things that help the public (math, science, literature, etc) I'm good with that. 

If public schools don't want to lose that money, then they need to figure out an incentive to keep the student at the public school.

[CMRivdogs]

50 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

True to a point, but we can see the reverse in examples all across the country where inner city schools get more support than others and still didn't improve the quality of education. 

I don't know the details on the Ohio bill, but I've never had problems with public funds going to private schools to assist with education.  I don't want public funds going to fund abortions, yet to me, it's still important for Planned Parenthood to get public fund for all the other benefits it provides.  If a religious school agrees to spend the money it receives from the public on things that help the public (math, science, literature, etc) I'm good with that. 

If public schools don't want to lose that money, then they need to figure out an incentive to keep the student at the public school.

Pondering this a bit more. I'm still opposed to public funds going to private schools. What also needs to be done is getting more groups involved with early childhood education, preschool so to speak. There are too many children entering kindergarten and first grade who are not prepared, especially in the inner city. One of the problems is their parents have no clue on how to prepare their offspring. 
 

There are some groups attempting to work with individual communities, but it's just a drop in the bucket. It's also a challenge to encourage parents to attend the sessions. IMO, it's little things like reading to your kids, encouraging them to explore. Simple things like reading the cereal box for example. 
 

Those of us dreaded Boomers had things like Ding Dong School, Romper Room, Captain Kangaroo. We were already equipped with ABC's, and counting by the time we entered school. Our kids had things like Sesame Street, Electric Company, etc. but we're middle class. I have a feeling in the "projects" not so much.

[LaceyLou]

3 hours ago, chasfh said:

Merry Christmas, everybody!

This is a political forum, so, obviously, I have thoughts. 😁

Everyone once in a while we might hear about how someone who's Jewish says they do not celebrate Christmas, or how Jewish kids feel left out when the rest of their class have Christmas activities, things along those lines. We probably don't hear as much of that as we used to, but it still comes up occasionally.

But I have been wondering for some time now—well, why can't they? Why can't Jewish people, Muslim people, people of other religions or no religion, celebrate Christmas? Because it doesn't take a long time examining it to conclude that Christmas is actually two separate holidays, not just one.

Yes, of course there's the religious Christmas, the one with the Jesus and the creche and the religious songs and the church services and all that. That's important to a lot of people, maybe even the most important aspect of the holiday. (Or holy day, if they prefer.)

But there is also the secular Christmas, the one with the Santa and the tree and the ornaments and the presents and the caroling and all that, none of which literally have anything to do with Jesus or Christianity or any of it.

It's true that many people mix the religious and the secular elements to suit themselves—they sing religious and secular carols back to back, put a manger scene under the tree, sing "Deck the Halls" as the recessional song during midnight mass, etc.—and that is certainly their right to do so. That's what makes them feel good about Christmas, and what can be wrong about that? Nothing that I can see.

But you certainly don't have to mix the two. They can be kept completely separate.

After all, Christmas Day is a federal holiday. That's not because we're a Christian country—after all, Good Friday and Ash Wednesday and Epiphany and All Saints' Day aren't federal holidays. But Christmas is, because in 1870, business and labor were each clamoring for federal holidays to help stanch worker burnout, and also, the Grant administration sought to promote national unity in the days after the civil war. In fact, the bill creating the federal legal status of holiday did not specify "Christmas"—only the date December 25th.

So if December 25th is a federal holiday, shouldn't all people, regardless of religion, feel free to celebrate at least the widely-beloved, culturally-resonant secular aspects of the holiday in whatever way they choose? Shouldn't Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, whoever, feel free to celebrate Christmas however they wish, to express their feeling and conviction that they are part of the intrinsic fabric of this country, instead of being othered by people who identify themselves with the religion professed by the majority? Why can't they?

Certain jackass types—usually the types who associate being Christian with cultural and political codes rather than moral or ethical values—sometimes demand that people must "put the 'Christ' back in Christmas'", meaning, if people don't elevate Christ to the center of it all, even when sitting on Santa's lap at what used to be the mall, then they're doing it all wrong, the implication being that people shouldn't be allowed to celebrate Christmas without the Christ, or at least they should be ashamed to do so, and maybe even be ostracized for it. I fear we might start seeing and hearing a lot a lot more of that kind of thing during the next few years.

But in my view, that's the kind of thinking that seeks to keep us apart and at each other throats, to distract us with hatred of one another. They want us to fight over religion, among other things, while they and the rest of the upper 1% runs away with all the money. I'm pretty sure that is an explicitly expressed strategy.

My hope is that one day all demands that everyone must christfy Christmas can be set aside, and that all people will be able to enjoy the awesome secular aspects of the holiday without guilt, shame, or otherwise pressure to conform with anyone else's standards. I think that's one small way we could find common ground and come together as an American people.

I'm not Jewish but not a Christian either.... Honestly? I felt more left out when I went through the motions and tried to celebrate a holiday that felt too commercial and 'in your face' for me. Perhaps Festivus would have been a better for me. 😉 Now I just see it as a day to relax, and not as a holiday. 

I feel better as an observer, and can enjoy looking at lights and decorations-and for some reason I've always been a fan of A Christmas Carol. 

I will admit I'm relieved when the seemingly 24/7 holiday music and cheesy Christmas movies stop.

[romad1]

Rituals are good for people even if they are not religious. 

[romad1]

[Tiger337]

42 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Rituals are good for people even if they are not religious. 

Yes, for exmple I still put up the family Christmas creche every year even though neither I nor my remaining family members are religious.  It has been displayed in my family home every year of my life and the feeling of continuity is comforting. 

[CMRivdogs]

1 hour ago, romad1 said:

Rituals are good for people even if they are not religious. 

No argument here. Since 2021 or so we've attempted to start new traditions. With families that have different beliefs or religions, I've long believed you don't need a building, congregation, or specific set of rules to celebrate a time of the year where the celebration of the Solstice goes back more than 2000 plus years.

The past few years it's become about family and getting to know the younger generations better. We've gone from Dirty Christmas to "Pasta Rustic-a" a Saturday evening gathering just to visit with siblings, nieces, nephews, spouses and now a newer generation of kids. No politics, just regular conversation. 

We've also extended invitations for family members to visit while Colonial Williamsburg is at its season's finest, fireworks and crowds options. Decorating is minimal. I did enjoy the Too Hot to Handel  concert on PBS the other night. 

[gehringer_2]

3 hours ago, ewsieg said:

True to a point, but we can see the reverse in examples all across the country where inner city schools get more support than others and still didn't improve the quality of education. 

I don't know the details on the Ohio bill, but I've never had problems with public funds going to private schools to assist with education.  I don't want public funds going to fund abortions, yet to me, it's still important for Planned Parenthood to get public fund for all the other benefits it provides.  If a religious school agrees to spend the money it receives from the public on things that help the public (math, science, literature, etc) I'm good with that. 

If public schools don't want to lose that money, then they need to figure out an incentive to keep the student at the public school.

To me the one red line is admissions, if you take public money you must admit the ‘public’ without preference or exceptions. 

[Tiger337]

6 hours ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Nothin says Merry Christmas more than calling people Jackass’s! 🎄 

Nothing says Merry Christmas like telling people to go to hell.

 

[LaceyLou]

He sure takes his faith seriously. At least that's what the Cardinal of NYC tells us.

[gehringer_2]

28 minutes ago, LaceyLou said:

He sure takes his faith seriously. At least that's what the Cardinal of NYC tells us.

He just got the syntax a little out of order. Trump’s faith is to be serious about Taking His. 

Edited December 26, 2024 by gehringer_2

[romad1]

1 hour ago, CMRivdogs said:

No argument here. Since 2021 or so we've attempted to start new traditions. With families that have different beliefs or religions, I've long believed you don't need a building, congregation, or specific set of rules to celebrate a time of the year where the celebration of the Solstice goes back more than 2000 plus years.

The past few years it's become about family and getting to know the younger generations better. We've gone from Dirty Christmas to "Pasta Rustic-a" a Saturday evening gathering just to visit with siblings, nieces, nephews, spouses and now a newer generation of kids. No politics, just regular conversation. 

We've also extended invitations for family members to visit while Colonial Williamsburg is at its season's finest, fireworks and crowds options. Decorating is minimal. I did enjoy the Too Hot to Handel  concert on PBS the other night. 

Chicken Tetrazzini is our go to dinner for Christmas now because we like it and who cares?

We play softball catch on Thanksgiving at halftime of the Lions game no matter the weather.  

We invite the most churchy person present to pray but otherwise if nobody objects,  don’t do grace.

We eat chinese on Christmas Eve because our departed mother used to insist that she not cook on Christmas Eve. So that becomes a multi generational and multi-geographical thing the siblings have done with their kids.

[gehringer_2]

9 hours ago, chasfh said:

My hope is that one day all demands that everyone must christfy Christmas

I wouldn't argue that there is a segment of the religious community that would like to 'reclaim' Christmas for itself, an argument that 'it's our holiday and if you aren't going to be part of us you shouldn't be expropriating it into secular culture." Given that the Church largely expropriated Roman Solstice celebration into the Christmas festival in the first place, that the Christmas Tree is a totally pagan symbol, etc., that's a bit of hypocritical complaint. OTOH, within the Church, not losing sight of the religious meaning in the middle of all the secular hoopla that intrudes remains a useful piece of advice. So it depends a bit on who is saying it to whom.

Edited December 26, 2024 by gehringer_2

[oblong]

5 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

To me the one red line is admissions, if you take public money you must admit the ‘public’ without preference or exceptions. 

That’s exactly it.  There’s other element, kind of related, is a big reason public schools “ are not as good” is because they do have to serve everyone.  When a school gets to pick their students then naturally they will perform better. Public schools serve a population that includes people on the margins. These kids require extra expenses. Conservatives don’t want to deal with that. They’d prefer you just send those kids away in some institution. Out of sight out of mind.  Then the class can be limited to 23 kids with none of those “special” kids holding everyone back.
How do you improve something by taking away funding?  
 

And the other thing is taxes aren’t linked to individuals. 

[chasfh]

10 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

20 hours ago, chasfh said:

My hope is that one day all demands that everyone must christfy Christmas

This reads as though I am demanding that everyone christify Christmas. Is that what you believe?

[chasfh]

7 hours ago, oblong said:

That’s exactly it.  There’s other element, kind of related, is a big reason public schools “ are not as good” is because they do have to serve everyone.  When a school gets to pick their students then naturally they will perform better. Public schools serve a population that includes people on the margins. These kids require extra expenses. Conservatives don’t want to deal with that. They’d prefer you just send those kids away in some institution. Out of sight out of mind.  Then the class can be limited to 23 kids with none of those “special” kids holding everyone back.
How do you improve something by taking away funding?  
 

And the other thing is taxes aren’t linked to individuals. 

Conservatives have a better idea than putting those kids in institutions: put them to work. Stop spending money on them, and start extracting financial value out of them. 

 

[Tigeraholic1]

We went from Christmas is a long dead traditional holiday to child labor laws belong in the religion thread.....

[CMRivdogs]

1 hour ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

We went from Christmas is a long dead traditional holiday to child labor laws belong in the religion thread.....

You must be new here. All our political threads tend to wander like cow paths in an orchard

[Tigeraholic1]

Hmmm

 

Edited December 26, 2024 by Tigeraholic1
.

[romad1]

This category really bleeds into Project Autocracy because often religion is used as a lever by the autocrats.  God bless all those with religious feelings but damn those who impose their versions of theocratic domination over the free peoples of the Earth.

[oblong]

24 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Hmmm

 

I’m still hung up on “since what” because the book of Mathew says Jesus was born under Herod. But he died in 4 BCE.  The book of Luke says Jesus was born during the census of Quirinius which contradicts that and the Bible is infallible so….and we have a day of the week named after a Norse god  and some of our months so I guess we are not monotheists when it comes to tracking days and months. 

[gehringer_2]

3 hours ago, chasfh said:

This reads as though I am demanding that everyone christify Christmas. Is that what you believe?

Not at all

[Tigeraholic1]

56 minutes ago, romad1 said:

This category really bleeds into Project Autocracy because often religion is used as a lever by the autocrats.  God bless all those with religious feelings but damn those who impose their versions of theocratic domination over the free peoples of the Earth.

Yeah, take a look at the middle east.....

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Not at all

That's how your wildly-out-of-context quoting of my post could fairly be interpreted.

[Tigeraholic1]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

That's how your wildly-out-of-context quoting of my post could fairly be interpreted.

Always the victim....