1984Echoes Posted July 18, 2022 Share Posted July 18, 2022 10 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: You’d have to add to it, but I doubt he’s untouchable. The bloom is off his 🌹. He’s made Tork’s struggle in the MLB look like nuttin’ Yeah... despite his struggles in MLB... Let's use Tork as an example. What would you need in a package to trade Tork to another team? Soto? More? Put together a package that gets you Tork, and then we're in the ballpark with Kelenic; although I would imagine that even that package might be just a bit short. But start from there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 18, 2022 Share Posted July 18, 2022 PS: Makes Torks' struggles look like nothing? Wut? Kelenic broke into MLB at 21 and since then has a .173 BA/ .594 OPS in 473 PA's. Has a .294 BA/ .911 OPS in the minors in 1107 PA's. Tork broke into MLB at 21 and since then has a .197 BA/ .577 OPS in 298 PA's. Has a .267 BA/ .935 OPS in the minors in 530 PA's. These two look almost EXACTLY ALIKE in performance, especially in MLB... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted July 18, 2022 Share Posted July 18, 2022 5 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Yeah... despite his struggles in MLB... Let's use Tork as an example. What would you need in a package to trade Tork to another team? Soto? More? Put together a package that gets you Tork, and then we're in the ballpark with Kelenic; although I would imagine that even that package might be just a bit short. But start from there... understand your point, but Tork is more highly regarded. And Kellenic has failed miserably in two separate MLB trials. Also, if the Tigers were a playoff contender, they might be open to a similar move, if they could get players to put them over the top. I'm too lazy to look at the Mariner's bullpen, but if getting Soto and Fulmer, along with one of our better prospects would free up a player they don't expect to contribute this year, they might be more open-minded to it. I get it, though--we overvalue our own players/prospects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley70 Posted July 18, 2022 Share Posted July 18, 2022 I think Soto could land a top 50 prospect, maybe more. Fulmer would bring back more of a lottery ticket, and between Avila picking that prospect and our player development people it is unlikely to pay off. Having said that Lange was a lottery ticket at one time, and Fulmer will be a free agent so what do you have to lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 18, 2022 Share Posted July 18, 2022 Right. What would you trade Tork for....? Start from there and then add/ subtract to get to Kelenic. Even if the bloom is off the rose... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted July 18, 2022 Share Posted July 18, 2022 1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said: PS: Makes Torks' struggles look like nothing? Wut? Kelenic broke into MLB at 21 and since then has a .173 BA/ .594 OPS in 473 PA's. Has a .294 BA/ .911 OPS in the minors in 1107 PA's. Tork broke into MLB at 21 and since then has a .197 BA/ .577 OPS in 298 PA's. Has a .267 BA/ .935 OPS in the minors in 530 PA's. These two look almost EXACTLY ALIKE in performance, especially in MLB... you conveniently removed MLB from my comparison. Kellenic has failed twice now--if over the next 180 AB's in the MLB (to get to Kellenic's MLB experience), Tork puts up similar crappy performance, I will revise my stance and apologize profusely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 18, 2022 Share Posted July 18, 2022 1 hour ago, mtutiger said: I don't mind the strategy with Fulmer or even Chafin, because they are on more short term deals, but trading Alex Lange or even someone like Will Vest for a lottery ticket seems unwise from where I'm sitting. Theoretically, they are all available, but the price for guys that are controllable longer term should be higher. Right, and Chafin comes with an extra year, which may be worth less in return unless we give cash too. Fulmer is not very good (high walk rate, low BABIP), so I’m thinking he won’t return much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 18, 2022 Share Posted July 18, 2022 11 minutes ago, Stanley70 said: I think Soto could land a top 50 prospect, maybe more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted July 18, 2022 Share Posted July 18, 2022 Should have used Fulmer as the closer to increase his trade value and then use Soto to close next year. Oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley70 Posted July 18, 2022 Share Posted July 18, 2022 9 minutes ago, chasfh said: Does this mean you don't think he would bring back that good of a prospect? Ronny Mauricio? Mathew Liberatore? Someone like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 18, 2022 Share Posted July 18, 2022 28 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: you conveniently removed MLB from my comparison. Kellenic has failed twice now--if over the next 180 AB's in the MLB (to get to Kellenic's MLB experience), Tork puts up similar crappy performance, I will revise my stance and apologize profusely. I didn't remove MLB at all. SO FAR... my numbers are exactly correct. And to your point... if Tork comes back up here on a tear, in his next 180 PA's, he easily surpasses Kelenic. It's just... yet to be determined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 18, 2022 Share Posted July 18, 2022 1 hour ago, Stanley70 said: Does this mean you don't think he would bring back that good of a prospect? Ronny Mauricio? Mathew Liberatore? Someone like that. I don't see any way they can unlock a numbered prospect for a guy who walks too many batters, whose strikeouts are down, who gives up the hardest contact of anyone in the game, and who can't be relied upon to work consistently clean inning. Alex Lange would have a better chance of unlocking a prospect like that, except he is the exact guy we would hope to get back in a trade. I would like to be wrong about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted July 18, 2022 Share Posted July 18, 2022 Maybe trade Lange for a hitting equivalent of Lange. I am not sure what that would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 18, 2022 Share Posted July 18, 2022 9 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: Maybe trade Lange for a hitting equivalent of Lange. I am not sure what that would be. Like a guy who hits only in the seventh and eighth inning? Sure, what could it hurt? 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted July 18, 2022 Share Posted July 18, 2022 Just now, chasfh said: Like a guy who hits only in the seventh and eighth inning? Sure, what could it hurt? 😉 Gates Brown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 I got excited when I saw Soto trending on Twitter...but it was the wrong Soto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 16 hours ago, Tigermojo said: Should have used Fulmer as the closer to increase his trade value and then use Soto to close next year. Oh well. That would have little impact, clubs evaluate mostly based on stuff, analytics, not stats, situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, Tenacious D said: understand your point, but Tork is more highly regarded. And Kellenic has failed miserably in two separate MLB trials. Also, if the Tigers were a playoff contender, they might be open to a similar move, if they could get players to put them over the top. I'm too lazy to look at the Mariner's bullpen, but if getting Soto and Fulmer, along with one of our better prospects would free up a player they don't expect to contribute this year, they might be more open-minded to it. I get it, though--we overvalue our own players/prospects. IMHO You both have points. No guarantees either Tork or Kellenick are going to be a continued MLB success (though both very strong potential to do so). With said Detroit might have a shot if 1) the Mariners feel they have a real chance 'this year' and 2) they would have to add a prospect or two that Seattle values. Heck they may be ok with Daz (maybe better so far in MLB than Kellenick) and still another more highly touted prospect (at this time). From that perspective it might end up being a 3-4 for 1 and another 'lesser' player from Seattle - but this is the type of deal AA may need to pull off. The Tigs GM may need to get something done at this trade deadline. Standing pat may be just a continued disaster and 'no' attempt to improve may lead to his demise. At least a solid deal or two is an attempt to get back on track for him (staff included) and the team. Again the old baseball adages: "You can never have too much pitching" and "Everyone is looking for pitching" play into the Tigs strength with the BP. Lets see how true that is and what may take place. Perhaps... Edited July 19, 2022 by alex 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 Ever since the Royals won the WS with a dominant bullpen teams do seem to be willing to pay a little more for stud relievers at the deadline vs. other positions. For example the Cubs gave up a top 5 overall prospect in Torres for a half of year of Chapman and we also got a good haul for Justin Wilson ourselves by getting Candelario and Paredes. I know there have been several more "overpays" for relievers but those are just two off the top of my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 15 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: Ever since the Royals won the WS with a dominant bullpen teams do seem to be willing to pay a little more for stud relievers at the deadline vs. other positions. For example the Cubs gave up a top 5 overall prospect in Torres for a half of year of Chapman and we also got a good haul for Justin Wilson ourselves by getting Candelario and Paredes. I know there have been several more "overpays" for relievers but those are just two off the top of my head. Cubs got Nick Madrigal for Craig Kimbrel. Of course, that hasn’t worked out for either team (yet). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 15 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: Ever since the Royals won the WS with a dominant bullpen teams do seem to be willing to pay a little more for stud relievers at the deadline vs. other positions. For example the Cubs gave up a top 5 overall prospect in Torres for a half of year of Chapman and we also got a good haul for Justin Wilson ourselves by getting Candelario and Paredes. I know there have been several more "overpays" for relievers but those are just two off the top of my head. He hasn't had his time at the majors yet, but getting Reese Olson for Daniel Norris is another eye opener. Very solid prospect who projects to being a major leaguer for a guy who wasn't even rostered for the Brewers postseason run last year. The Wilson/Norris deals definitely provide hope they can get a little more than we think they can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 36 minutes ago, mtutiger said: He hasn't had his time at the majors yet, but getting Reese Olson for Daniel Norris is another eye opener. Very solid prospect who projects to being a major leaguer for a guy who wasn't even rostered for the Brewers postseason run last year. The Wilson/Norris deals definitely provide hope they can get a little more than we think they can. Cubs just cut Norris this past week—never understood why he wasn’t better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 Freep beat writer fluffing up Soto, I assume in advance of a trade. I approve of the effort. Here's my favorite giggle-inducing part: For as much flak as Soto gets for his command, he has been consistent — and nearly perfect — for the Tigers over his two seasons as the closer, converting 36 saves in 39 save opportunities. That makes him one of the best closers in baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 1 hour ago, Tenacious D said: Cubs just cut Norris this past week—never understood why he wasn’t better. Ditto. The stuff he showed that first Sept he came over from Toronto was electric. Fabulous spin on his 4 seam. Hard to know if he is one of those guys who accumulated a bunch of micro injuries that just ground the edges off all his stuff, or he just never could develop a sound pitcher’s mind, or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley70 Posted July 19, 2022 Share Posted July 19, 2022 Here is an article from the Athletic discussing the Tigers potential trade candidates. For Soto they list the Dodgers as the most likely trade partner because they can offer top 50ish prospects Busch, Pages or Vargas. And Detroit would likely not settle for something less than that. They aren't sure if the Dodgers would do that for those without subscriptions but that is what Detroit would ask for hypothetically. They suggest Fulmer as more likely to be traded for a lesser return. https://theathletic.com/3388230/2022/06/29/tigers-trade-deadline/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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