RandyMarsh Posted July 21, 2022 Share Posted July 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, buddha said: man, matt boyd wasnt that good. we totally should have traded him while we had the chance. but avila didnt. because he is bad at his job. We all talk about his bad trades, drafts, signings etc. but not selling high on Boyd and Fulmer when he had the chance was a somewhat under the radar blunder that doesn't get talked about enough. We flat out admitted that we were in full rebuild and several years a way from contention so when you're that far a way there is zero reason to keep 2 starting pitchers with injury histories. The likelihood they would still be good when we were competing was extremely small so why not trade them for younger guys that match up better with your competitive timeline? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 9 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: We all talk about his bad trades, drafts, signings etc. but not selling high on Boyd and Fulmer when he had the chance was a somewhat under the radar blunder that doesn't get talked about enough. We flat out admitted that we were in full rebuild and several years a way from contention so when you're that far a way there is zero reason to keep 2 starting pitchers with injury histories. The likelihood they would still be good when we were competing was extremely small so why not trade them for younger guys that match up better with your competitive timeline? DD would have traded those two in a nano-second. I still remember him trading anyone who was unloadable, and I do mean anyone, from 2002-2005. Jeff Weaver for Carlos Pena + others in 2002, and also Brian Moehler traded that deadline, traded Randall Simon over the winter, Mark Redmon for Nate Robertson + others 2003, here's a FUNNY one: DD acquired AJ Hinch, catcher, on 3/29/03 from the Indians for a PTBNL, traded Adam Bernero, 2004 traded Ramon Santiago and Juan Gonzalez (the OTHER Juan G) to the Mariners for Carlos Guillen, and Cody Ross for Steve Colyer (ewww... confession, I was for the trade at the time. Still never thought much of Ross but he did have a career whilst Colyer had none), 2005 traded for Kyle Farnsworth, traded Ugy Urbino and Ramon Martinez for Placido Polanco, traded Farnsworth for Roman Colon and Zach Miner, traded away Kenny Baugh.... Man, I agree. If you're in a rebuild... you keep churning the roster until you don't need to any more. He absolutely should have traded Fulmer and Boyd if he had the chance and a really great offer... for either or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said: We all talk about his bad trades, drafts, signings etc. but not selling high on Boyd and Fulmer when he had the chance was a somewhat under the radar blunder that doesn't get talked about enough. We flat out admitted that we were in full rebuild and several years a way from contention so when you're that far a way there is zero reason to keep 2 starting pitchers with injury histories. The likelihood they would still be good when we were competing was extremely small so why not trade them for younger guys that match up better with your competitive timeline? cause he wanted gleybar torres and the yankees hung up on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted July 22, 2022 Author Share Posted July 22, 2022 1 hour ago, buddha said: cause he wanted gleybar torres and the yankees hung up on him. after back to back cluster effs with JD and JV, he wanted a "big win" to impress his boss and quiet the critics, little did he know his boss did not care 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedTeamGo! Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 After reading this thread, not sure who is worse: Avila or Nick Krall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 Maybe the Yanks will come a-calling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 Cashman: "Hey Al any interest in trading Fulmer, Lange or Soto" Al: "Only for Volpe and Dominguez" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 45 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: Cashman: "Hey Al any interest in trading Fulmer, Lange or Soto" Al: "Only for Volpe and Dominguez" Would be idiotic, but on brand lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAbbott Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 On 7/21/2022 at 6:31 PM, buddha said: no reason to trade skubal. he's young and good and cost controlled, why the heck would we trade him unless its for a similar player at a different position of need. let's be honest, do we trust avila to trade any of these guys? dd? yes. but what's avila gonna get for any of these guys? jose king? let's just keep them and pray that illitch fires avila and lets the bext guy sort it out. I would be tempted to host an intergalactic kegger if Avila got fired. After looking at the organization, we have an ops of .619, with the MLB median at .709 and the top twelve teams being .722 or better. We have one player, Haase, that has a WAR above 1. In short, we are woefully inadequate offensively. We need to come to grips with one simple fact is that we are still in a rebuild because it has been bungled horribly during the last seven years. Whether we like it or not, Skubal is a major asset, and this team is a lot further away from being a .500 team, let alone a true contender than most of what we believe. I believe that we will be sub .500 next year as well. I am also not convinced that Tork will make it and stick in the MLB as an impact player. We have still quite a bit of pitching in the pipe. Skubal is valuable in that IIRC, he has had his Tommy John, and Faedo is still working on his craft. Offensively, might have 2 positional super subs in the farm system right now that is close and outside of some pitching, that is about it Between Turnbull and Mize, one at least should recover from TJ very successfully, filling a pitching slot. Manning hasn't had a TJ and recovered yet, which also makes him less valuable as his recent arm history would make me think he will have one someday soon. Since bullpens are always a crapshoot, I wouldn't hesitate to trade bullpen pieces for bats. There isn't anything in the current bullpen that is not for sale in my opinion. The one major reason I would reject any Skubal trade, is the fact that during the last seven years the Tigers demonstrated that it is doubtful that they can evaluate, acquire protect, and develop talent. The fact that AA is still GM remains a very powerful reason not to trade anything, except maybe Soto or Fulmer. In the real world with a half-competent GM, a trade of Skubal would have to be considered. l would listen to offers and mull them over carefully for Skubal while being roughly 99 percent certain I would never pull the trigger so long as it is Al Avila's call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 (edited) Trading Skubal concerns me for two reasons: 1. (The obvious one) Al Avila would be doing the trading 2. While we do not know whether he grows into it, he's the pitcher in the system most likely to achieve ace status. With respect to the second point, I do think the Tigers have become a decent org in terms of developing pitching talent, but if we are completely honest with ourselves, outside of Skubal, who is the guy that they have who can grow into a 1 or a 2 starter? Maybe Madden imo, but even with him I'm skeptical. Assuming Manning doesn't get there, they have a bunch of guys who currently project, best case scenario, no higher than a 3 (ie. Faedo, Brieske, Olson, Hill etc.). And then you have complete wild cards in Turnbull and Mize... what do they look like if/when they get back? Probably not front line guys There's always a price, so I guess if you could get someone like Alec Burleson or Nolan Gorman off the Cards, maybe it becomes worth it. But I doubt that's happening. So I hope they don't move him. Edited July 23, 2022 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 Make an offer for a catcher: The premise is that we can both sell AND buy at the deadline. So... pick a team that is also losing its ass off, and make an offer for a catcher that we want for the next 3-ish years or so that (A) Does not have to be a superstar. This is not a pie-in-the-sky offer we're making here. (B) Could be either a vet that isn't too old (say 28-30) for the next 3 OR is a young guy we think we can obtain, has enough bat to not be a black hole in the lineup; and when one of Rogers/ Dingler/ Crouch/ other pushes for a starting catcher position on the Tigers, the vet can still share some catching duties with him. Or maybe even provide competition/ keep his job because he's actually better. (C) Yeah... it will be a rebuilding team so they'll probably want a catcher in return: you can use anyone in the trade... but if it's Rogers, the other guys traded probably have to be better than if it was Dingler or maybe even Crouch (don't know enough to say...). I would guess that only leaves a few candidates. Keep contract status in mind... Willson Contreras, 30, Cubs. On a 1-year so FA after this year. Probably cheapest to obtain. But then keeping him as a FA could be an issue... Tyler Stephenson, 25, Reds. Probably best available but most difficult to obtain. MJ Melendez, 23, Royals (2nd rounder). Batting .225 with some power and not much different than Rogers, or what Dingler is doing so far (I expect Dingler to do better...) in the minors. He also didn't do much more in the minors .237 BA with an .800 OPS (showing that power...). But he might be more certain than Rogers and if the Royals are punting on the season...? Take a look if you spot someone different/ want to propose a trade... If all I want to do is stabilize the position... I make an offer for Melendez. Rogers, choose one of Brieske or Hill or maybe a lower guy that hasn't hit MLB yet? And whatever else balances out that trade... Just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 PS: On Stephenson, I don't mean that he's "Available" available, or has been made available... just that a deal could possibly be pitched for a rebuilding team that might make sense. But now you're talking Dingler, maybe Olson or even Jobe?, etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 On second thought... If Ilitch/ Avila "really" want this rebuild to be over... make that BIG pitch for Stephenson. Dingler, Jobe, who else gets that done? That would REALLY stabilize the catching spot for the next 5 years... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hart Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 29 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Make an offer for a catcher: The premise is that we can both sell AND buy at the deadline. So... pick a team that is also losing its ass off, and make an offer for a catcher that we want for the next 3-ish years or so that (A) Does not have to be a superstar. This is not a pie-in-the-sky offer we're making here. (B) Could be either a vet that isn't too old (say 28-30) for the next 3 OR is a young guy we think we can obtain, has enough bat to not be a black hole in the lineup; and when one of Rogers/ Dingler/ Crouch/ other pushes for a starting catcher position on the Tigers, the vet can still share some catching duties with him. Or maybe even provide competition/ keep his job because he's actually better. (C) Yeah... it will be a rebuilding team so they'll probably want a catcher in return: you can use anyone in the trade... but if it's Rogers, the other guys traded probably have to be better than if it was Dingler or maybe even Crouch (don't know enough to say...). I would guess that only leaves a few candidates. Keep contract status in mind... Willson Contreras, 30, Cubs. On a 1-year so FA after this year. Probably cheapest to obtain. But then keeping him as a FA could be an issue... Tyler Stephenson, 25, Reds. Probably best available but most difficult to obtain. MJ Melendez, 23, Royals (2nd rounder). Batting .225 with some power and not much different than Rogers, or what Dingler is doing so far (I expect Dingler to do better...) in the minors. He also didn't do much more in the minors .237 BA with an .800 OPS (showing that power...). But he might be more certain than Rogers and if the Royals are punting on the season...? Take a look if you spot someone different/ want to propose a trade... If all I want to do is stabilize the position... I make an offer for Melendez. Rogers, choose one of Brieske or Hill or maybe a lower guy that hasn't hit MLB yet? And whatever else balances out that trade... Just a thought... Melendez is the guy I have thought about and want but the cost is going to be fairly high. He was a top 50 prospect going into the season and broke out last year after crushing the upper levels of the minors. I think that is more relevant than his career minor league numbers. Would you give up Torkelson for him? Because that might be what it takes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 Just now, Hart said: Melendez is the guy I have thought about and want but the cost is going to be fairly high. He was a top 50 prospect going into the season and broke out last year after crushing the upper levels of the minors. I think that is more relevant than his career minor league numbers. Would you give up Torkelson for him? Because that might be what it takes. No. It starts with sending back a catcher, and adding in pitching. I think that is what it takes. And also an attractive enough package can be put together without resorting to a ridiculous overpay. Torkelson for MJ Melendez? Ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 7 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: Make an offer for a catcher: The premise is that we can both sell AND buy at the deadline. So... pick a team that is also losing its ass off, and make an offer for a catcher that we want for the next 3-ish years or so that (A) Does not have to be a superstar. This is not a pie-in-the-sky offer we're making here. (B) Could be either a vet that isn't too old (say 28-30) for the next 3 OR is a young guy we think we can obtain, has enough bat to not be a black hole in the lineup; and when one of Rogers/ Dingler/ Crouch/ other pushes for a starting catcher position on the Tigers, the vet can still share some catching duties with him. Or maybe even provide competition/ keep his job because he's actually better. (C) Yeah... it will be a rebuilding team so they'll probably want a catcher in return: you can use anyone in the trade... but if it's Rogers, the other guys traded probably have to be better than if it was Dingler or maybe even Crouch (don't know enough to say...). I would guess that only leaves a few candidates. Keep contract status in mind... Willson Contreras, 30, Cubs. On a 1-year so FA after this year. Probably cheapest to obtain. But then keeping him as a FA could be an issue... Tyler Stephenson, 25, Reds. Probably best available but most difficult to obtain. MJ Melendez, 23, Royals (2nd rounder). Batting .225 with some power and not much different than Rogers, or what Dingler is doing so far (I expect Dingler to do better...) in the minors. He also didn't do much more in the minors .237 BA with an .800 OPS (showing that power...). But he might be more certain than Rogers and if the Royals are punting on the season...? Take a look if you spot someone different/ want to propose a trade... If all I want to do is stabilize the position... I make an offer for Melendez. Rogers, choose one of Brieske or Hill or maybe a lower guy that hasn't hit MLB yet? And whatever else balances out that trade... Just a thought... contreras is the best catcher on the market and will not be cheap to obtain. i would love to see them sign contreras in the offseason on a 2-3 yeae deal if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 12 hours ago, buddha said: contreras is the best catcher on the market and will not be cheap to obtain. i would love to see them sign contreras in the offseason on a 2-3 yeae deal if possible. Perhaps the Tigers can have Javy help reel in Willson Contreras to sign a multiyear deal in Detroit ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 Signing a catcher seems like a luxury at this point.... particularly when they probably need to focus more on getting another outfielder (or two) and a 3B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLiveMaroth Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 A lot of smoke around Jimenez getting traded. 1 article from Beck and 1 from some other guy on mlb.com https://www.mlb.com/tigers/news/under-the-radar-2022-trade-deadline-candidates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 I think that is the first time in four decades Jason Beck has ever speculated on anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted July 26, 2022 Author Share Posted July 26, 2022 one week to go for Barnhart, Grossman, Fulmer and Chafin. Looks like Pineda on IL again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLiveMaroth Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 Oh boy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 6 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said: one week to go for Barnhart, Grossman, Fulmer and Chafin. Looks like Pineda on IL again. One week to go meaning what? All of them traded? I'm thinking Chafin might be the only one to go. Unless you think the other three will be DFA'ed, in which case, I'm not sure I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLiveMaroth Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 1 minute ago, chasfh said: One week to go meaning what? All of them traded? I'm thinking Chafin might be the only one to go. Unless you think the other three will be DFA'ed, in which case, I'm not sure I agree. I am willing to bet Fulmer get traded way before he gets DFA'd. I mean he will at least finish out the season for the Tigers if they don't trade him. Someone like the Braves might take a flier on Grossman since he hits lefties so well this year but yeah Barnhart probably won't have any value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 Just now, LongLiveMaroth said: Oh boy. Well, gee, if they succeed in trading "just about everyone" away, then don't they also have to let Al go, or at least relieve him of executive general responsibility as general manager, since he was the architect behind this entire mess? They can't seriously expect, believe, or even hope that Al can build a winner out of blowing it all up a second time in less than five years on his watch, can they? That would be beyond asinine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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