2022 Trade Deadline

[AlaskanTigersFan]

Just now, sabretooth said:

Yes, there is a potential upside to this unforetunate experiment, but it hinges on keeping guys healthy.  Admittedly, some of these pitchers came into this season coming off injuries or with mechanical issues that caught up, and the Tigers couldnt do enough to protect them when things snowballed.

If Fetters has the answers to all of this, then they could make the rotation work, but I really think that they need at least one or two more quality arms, and I think they are unlikely to go get them.  Hopefully Eduardo can pitch a full season effectively in 2023.

I think we also need to stop signing guys that hit for power, but strike out 25% + every time. Look at our draft picks.... We always take power with high Strikeout rates.... We need OBP machines and guys that strike out 10-15% of the time. I was fervantly against signing Baez when Correa was still available because of just that. The Tigers are LOADED with lineups year, after year, after year with high strikeouts. I'd bet any amount of money you want that in the last 20 years, the Tigers have struck out more times than any other MLB team. Probably by quite a large margin too. We go after the wrong type of hitters and have for a long time. Smith, Dombrowski, Avila... They all have done it and continue to do it. It does no good having 9 guys batting .220 with 20+ HR's.... You need 3-5 hitters hitting .275+ in order to dream of being competitive. Until this changes, we are going to suck. It just amazes me how the Tigers are the only team in MLB that doesn't seem to "get it". 

[1984Echoes]

Does that mean at all? Or just with the Tigers?

If he does rehab innings this year even just at Lakeland Complex... I consider that as more of a positive than him pitching his first innings next year in Spring Training.

[AlaskanTigersFan]

4 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Wouldn't short sell the Dodgers on that front tho... they have a ton of money yet are Ray-like in a lot of ways though.

Either way, the discussion about bringing home a former great to run the team is beside the point... the team needs a new vision, one from the outside, it doesn't need to look to the past.

Exactly. Illitch isn't poor by any means. We literally could be the Dodgers 2.0 (to an extent). If we could get the brains of the Tampa Bay and the Tigers Payroll where it could/should be, we'd be WS contenders every year for the next 20 years..... 

The Dodgers constantly have 5+ players in the top 100 of all MLB. Every year they develop players. They then trade them for stars and pay them big time because they have so many and no where for them to go.... The Tigers could absolutely do this if we didn't have a moronic GM.

If Al Avila says in the news that they "couldn't get a good offer" for their Bullpen  arms tomorrow in the news, he needs to be fired. He couldn't get a deal done because the other GM's wouldn't take him seriously and have an honest conversation with him. I know this is gonna sound dumb, but if your in a fantasy baseball or fantasy football or any fantasy league, there's always one owner in that league that people usually just ignore even if they have decent stuff on their roster that they may be willing to move. I honestly feel that's how MLB GM's feel about Avila. That is why he needs to be moved on from......

[Tigermojo]

2 minutes ago, AlaskanTigersFan said:

Exactly. Illitch isn't poor by any means. We literally could be the Dodgers 2.0 (to an extent). If we could get the brains of the Tampa Bay and the Tigers Payroll where it could/should be, we'd be WS contenders every year for the next 20 years..... 

The Dodgers constantly have 5+ players in the top 100 of all MLB. Every year they develop players. They then trade them for stars and pay them big time because they have so many and no where for them to go.... The Tigers could absolutely do this if we didn't have a moronic GM.

If Al Avila says in the news that they "couldn't get a good offer" for their Bullpen  arms tomorrow in the news, he needs to be fired. He couldn't get a deal done because the other GM's wouldn't take him seriously and have an honest conversation with him. I know this is gonna sound dumb, but if your in a fantasy baseball or fantasy football or any fantasy league, there's always one owner in that league that people usually just ignore even if they have decent stuff on their roster that they may be willing to move. I honestly feel that's how MLB GM's feel about Avila. That is why he needs to be moved on from......

That's a good point. It's impossible to negotiate if you can't even get a conversation going.

"We want impact players."

"So does everyone else. Develop them yourself."

Development of talent has been an issue for this team for a long time.

[gehringer_2]

6 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Does that mean at all? Or just with the Tigers?

If he does rehab innings this year even just at Lakeland Complex... I consider that as more of a positive than him pitching his first innings next year in Spring Training.

fair question.. Whether throwing at FCL or the like would count as throwing competitive innings I wouldn't speculate. Obvious he is going to continue doing some kind of throwing

[mtutiger]

 

[Scottwood]

My worry is it's going to be difficult to get a top flight up and coming GM to come to Detroit with the longstanding indifference the Illitch family has had to International scouting and player development. They don't even own the facility in the Dominican Republic and have arguably committed the least amount of resources of any MLB organization to its international operations.

It is hard to win as a small or medium market if you basically ignore 30% of the player pool. If you model the organization after the Rays or a team like that, but with a little more expensive big league payroll, then you have to commit to gaining every advantage you can. It will be hard to recruit anyone good if they don't think that ownership is willing to invest to try to win.

In addition to that, hiring a quant GM and completely overhauling player development in the minors and majors to a more new age hitting approach are the other main things I'd like to see change. I had mentioned this on the other site when Hinch's hires were first announced and he hired a lot of really good assistants or well thought of people in player development (like Fetter), but then went totally old school with a failed hitting coach. It's still an odd decision. The swing path of basically every Tigers hitter has been markedly worse this year and Tork's was seemingly changed right after he entered the minors.

Another benefit of a quality GM who is up and coming is they would also likely be able to recruit other up and coming staff (due to their connections) to head up player development, beef up the biomechanics department and analytics department, etc. Avila is far removed from that world so anyone he brings in, like a Ryan Garko, is going to be uninspiring.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Scottwood

[casimir]

8 hours ago, sabretooth said:

There's something about all of these injuries to their starting pitchers that worries me.   For as good as Fetters is at getting the most out of guys when they're pitching, there has been an incredible number of injuries.  At a certain point you have to wonder if it's not just bad luck.

You're not the only one wondering this.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

You're not the only one wondering this.

Consider that If they are teaching guys how to spin their breaking balls harder, they are also teaching them how to put more load on their UCLs. There is no free lunch in physics, Newton’s 3rd law is going to apply. “Every action has an equal and opposite reaction”

[KL2]

8 hours ago, AlaskanTigersFan said:

I think we also need to stop signing guys that hit for power, but strike out 25% + every time. Look at our draft picks.... We always take power with high Strikeout rates.... We need OBP machines and guys that strike out 10-15% of the time. I was fervantly against signing Baez when Correa was still available because of just that. The Tigers are LOADED with lineups year, after year, after year with high strikeouts. I'd bet any amount of money you want that in the last 20 years, the Tigers have struck out more times than any other MLB team. Probably by quite a large margin too. We go after the wrong type of hitters and have for a long time. Smith, Dombrowski, Avila... They all have done it and continue to do it. It does no good having 9 guys batting .220 with 20+ HR's.... You need 3-5 hitters hitting .275+ in order to dream of being competitive. Until this changes, we are going to suck. It just amazes me how the Tigers are the only team in MLB that doesn't seem to "get it". 

They're 12th this year.

Have been top six the few years before that and led the league in 2019

In 2018-2015 they were in the somewhere between 15 and 20.

So wanna try again with your post?

[Tiger337]

32 minutes ago, KL2 said:

They're 12th this year.

Have been top six the few years before that and led the league in 2019

In 2018-2015 they were in the somewhere between 15 and 20.

So wanna try again with your post?

In the last 20 years, there are 11 teams with higher strikeout rates, so he was wrong about that too.  There are too many strikeouts in the game today, but it's everybody, not just the Tigers. 

[casimir]

Everybody is pitching to everybody else like they're Ted Williams.

[RandyMarsh]

Strikeouts are definitely part of today's games but without checking Id imagine most of the highest teams atleast offset that with high HR totals unlike the Tigers who are about 20 HRs behind the 29th ranked team. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by RandyMarsh

[casimir]

48 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Consider that If they are teaching guys how to spin their breaking balls harder, they are also teaching them how to put more load on their UCLs. There is no free lunch in physics, Newton’s 3rd law is going to apply. “Every action has an equal and opposite reaction”

Isn't there a shift rule beginning in MLB next season?  It will be interesting to see what the results of that are.  I am hoping less reliance on HR or SO and more batted baseballs put into play.  And then how does pitching fit into that?

[Tiger337]

There does not appear to be any correlation between team home runs and strikeouts.  The Tigers definitely lack home runs though.     

[chasfh]

9 hours ago, AlaskanTigersFan said:

I think we also need to stop signing guys that hit for power, but strike out 25% + every time. Look at our draft picks.... We always take power with high Strikeout rates....

Perhaps because Avila had gotten the memo that this was the hot new offensive strategy a few years too late.

[mtutiger]

40 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

In the last 20 years, there are 11 teams with higher strikeout rates, so he was wrong about that too.  There are too many strikeouts in the game today, but it's everybody, not just the Tigers. 

To that end, I don't know that the strikeouts are the issue so much as the one characteristic that I always associate with the Tigers: hardly ever getting on base via the BB.

With this year's team in particular, they do not draw walks at near the clip that the rest of the league does (with exception of the White Sox)

Edited August 3, 2022 by mtutiger

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

Consider that If they are teaching guys how to spin their breaking balls harder, they are also teaching them how to put more load on their UCLs. There is no free lunch in physics, Newton’s 3rd law is going to apply. “Every action has an equal and opposite reaction”

This is one reason they need to deaden the ball for good, and even more than it is now. If pitchers know the ball will stay in the park for most hitters, they won’t have to put 110% on every single pitch; the can pitch more to contact with versions of fastballs instead of breaking balls; less need for high spin, less pressure on UCLs, fewer injuries on the whole.

Counterpoint: Baseball likes having to cycle through innumerable league-minimum options.

[chasfh]

42 minutes ago, casimir said:

Isn't there a shift rule beginning in MLB next season?  It will be interesting to see what the results of that are.  I am hoping less reliance on HR or SO and more batted baseballs put into play.  And then how does pitching fit into that?

I think this means Baseball is doubling down on the home run: by mandating removal of the extra fielder from the pull side, more batters will be encouraged to try to pull and lift the ball out of the park because if they miss and hit liners or grounders, it’s more likely they’ll get base hits instead of grounding out 9-3.

The wild card will be whether they keep the ball deadened or, preferably, deaden it even more to reduce homers back down to under 1.00 per team game. I don’t think they would do so if the home run is the most popular prop bet event, which I would not doubt that it is.

 

[chasfh]

5 hours ago, Scottwood said:

In addition to that, hiring a quant GM and completely overhauling player development in the minors and majors to a more new age hitting approach are the other main things I'd like to see change.

From almost five years ago:

 

[Stanley70]

Keith Law made a comment in his chat the other day that if you laid all of the drafts in front of him he could tell which teams are drafting using video and analytics and which teams actually have scouts out looking at players. 

I suspect that the Tigers are one of the teams that do not have many scouts, and probably lag behind in player development staff personnel as well. Not sure how to prove that.

 

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Perhaps because Avila had gotten the memo that this was the hot new offensive strategy a few years too late.

Avila has said repeatedly that one of his priorities was finding guys that strike out less and walk more. Like everything else with Al, it's not his objectives, it's his execution.

[Tiger337]

8 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Avila has said repeatedly that one of his priorities was finding guys that strike out less and walk more. Like everything else with Al, it's not his objectives, it's his execution.

One could very easily be a good scout and poor GM which I suspect is the case with Avila.  

Edited August 3, 2022 by Tiger337

[Tenacious D]

12 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Avila has said repeatedly that one of his priorities was finding guys that strike out less and walk more. Like everything else with Al, it's not his objectives, it's his execution.

Tork, Keith and Jung reflect this. Maybe Greene, too.

honestly, this was the only reason I was bullish on Paredes for so long.

[chasfh]

And heeeere co-o-ome the pretzels ...

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by chasfh