Tiger337 Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 10 minutes ago, casimir said: Same, but with the way politics has been cascading into a grease fire, what will we end up with for options? I don't have confidence they will be good ones, but Biden is too old and Trump is insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 The key is to get all the dumb people to go back to not being interested in politics. I saw an article, that I didn't read completely, that blamed MTV and Bill Clinton. That helped make politics "cool" in the writer's mind. It's a stretch and not completely valid but there's some truth to the sentiment. I think Trumpism made politics interesting to a certain element that otherwise stayed home because they think everybody's crooked so they don't bother voting. We need to get back to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 The thing with the Republican primary is that the main alternative to Trump is basically all about co-opting his style. Heck, the way the two are differentiating themselves from one another currently is trying to out crazy each other COVID vaccinations lol. I'm sure some votes are up for grabs from some who like Trump, but I could see a lot of the hardcore folks questioning why they would go with the alternative candidate when they have the real deal available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2023/02/01/nikki-haley-announce-presidential-run-mid-february/11122023002/ Looks like Haley will be the first to officially get in the ring with Trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 1 hour ago, casimir said: Same, but with the way politics has been cascading into a grease fire, what will we end up with for options? Pamela Harris/ Pete Buttigieg vs Nikki Haley/Kari Lake. Then the "Founding Fathers" will rise from the grave and take us all back to the Promised Land Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 9 minutes ago, ewsieg said: https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/elections/2023/02/01/nikki-haley-announce-presidential-run-mid-february/11122023002/ Looks like Haley will be the first to officially get in the ring with Trump. She's actually hoping for the VP slot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted February 1, 2023 Author Share Posted February 1, 2023 I asked a buddy of mine who's a hard core Trumper where he fell on the Trump vs. Rhonda Santis battle. He said Trump all the way because he hates career politicians. I wonder how many others feel that way and whether Trumpers will just jump to a politician that's Trumpesque. I was not expecting that answer from him and whether Trump is not a politician is a debatable proposition but it was illuminating for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 11 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said: She's actually hoping for the VP slot So, she can a be a puppy for four years and then get thrown under the bus at the end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 Just now, pfife said: I asked a buddy of mine who's a hard core Trumper where he fell on the Trump vs. Rhonda Santis battle. He said Trump all the way because he hates career politicians. I wonder how many others feel that way and whether Trumpers will just jump to a politician that's Trumpesque. I was not expecting that answer from him and whether Trump is not a politician is a debatable proposition but it was illuminating for me. The few MAGAs I know think Trump is a Christian and a patriot who is honest and tells it like it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 3 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: So, she can a be a puppy for four years and then get thrown under the bus at the end? Anyone who straddles the Trump fence eventually ends up under the bus sooner or later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 27 minutes ago, pfife said: I asked a buddy of mine who's a hard core Trumper where he fell on the Trump vs. Rhonda Santis battle. He said Trump all the way because he hates career politicians. I wonder how many others feel that way and whether Trumpers will just jump to a politician that's Trumpesque. I was not expecting that answer from him and whether Trump is not a politician is a debatable proposition but it was illuminating for me. I see that sentiment on the facebook feeds of others. A righty friend will post something and I read all their friends comments. To them Rhonda is a "globalist" and, ahem... establishment. They got their marching orders and they are sticking to it. I think it's great that all of these people relented and caved into Trumpism after 2016.... and they still won't get the votes! It's like the Trumpers, to their credit, remember what was said about them in 2016 GOP Primary. The others pretend it was never said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 27 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: The few MAGAs I know think Trump is a Christian and a patriot who is honest and tells it like it is. The MAGA's I know tend to think he's a liar and a cheat, and thus the perfect weapon against all the other liars and cheaters they politically disagree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 27 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: The few MAGAs I know think Trump is a Christian and a patriot who is honest and tells it like it is. One mom of a friend said that Trump was sent by God to save us after "Obama sold us down a Muslim river". that was written by a hardcore evangelical Christian. Never forgot those words. That's the sentiment shared by millions of people in places like Alabama, TN, Kentucky, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 32 minutes ago, pfife said: I asked a buddy of mine who's a hard core Trumper where he fell on the Trump vs. Rhonda Santis battle. He said Trump all the way because he hates career politicians. I wonder how many others feel that way and whether Trumpers will just jump to a politician that's Trumpesque. I was not expecting that answer from him and whether Trump is not a politician is a debatable proposition but it was illuminating for me. It's not all that surprising to me.... why go for Rhonda Santis when you can get the pure uncut product straight from the source? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 On 1/31/2023 at 9:12 AM, CMRivdogs said: (I realize serious Trumpers is a bit of an oxymoron) So good on so many levels ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 27 minutes ago, ewsieg said: The MAGA's I know tend to think he's a liar and a cheat, and thus the perfect weapon against all the other liars and cheaters they politically disagree with. That is a somewhat better viewpoint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 21 hours ago, CMRivdogs said: The GOP a seems to wanting to walk a fine line between not wanting Trump and not wanting to piss off the 30% of the party that constitute his base. (How many members of the party in Congress still will not show contrition or backtrack on their vote Jan 6, 2021.) A lot of it depends on how many folks actually run for the nomination. If you look at a field that includes Trump, Desantis, along with Haley and Pence who are certainly sounding like candidates. Not to mention one or two others who seem to be pondering a run... Trump wins the nomination in a walk... Never-Trumpers will fall in line because they can't quit the sweet sweet tax cuts (or, more exactly, taxation and welfare shifts from the lower classes to the upper classes). Republicans never minded the fascism. It's why they've had a habit of supporting right wing dictators who were just as vicious as the left wing dictators they excoriated. It's the personal antics and behavior tics they can't stand. They want the Trumpism without the Trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 (edited) The other part of this discussion is, even if the field coalesced around one candidate (Ron DeSantis), is he actually a good national candidate and can he win in the places he needs to win in 2024? Obviously he did well in Florida during this past cycle, but some of that margin that he and Rubio attained is simply about anemic Democratic turnout compared with the rest of the country (doesn't account for all, but probably 5-10% of it from what I've read). And what plays in Florida, given it's unique mix of deep south, northern retirees and South American disapora that tends to be attracted to a more hard edged right wing message, does it have the same effect elsewhere? Tim Miller (also of the Bulwark) said on a one of their podcasts around Christmas that he had a hard time seeing Ronnie showing up in a place like Grand Rapids and having much success. I could be totally wrong, but having listened to the guy and seeing how he has postured himself for this upcoming run, I tend to agree.... and in order for a Republican to win in 2024, they need to do a lot better in places like that than Trump did in 2020 and how their congressional candidates did in 2022. "We need to coalesce around Ron DeSantis" is a strategy, but it isn't necessarily one that goes through the effort to find the best possible to candidate to both take on Trump and to win a general election.... it's basically a form of groupthink emanating from the need to avoid a split field. Edited February 1, 2023 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 An overall sentiment I see from the Bullwark folks is that if you want to beat Trump, you have to go at him. Sitting back and hoping everyone forms around you isn't going to work. The second part of that is if you agree with this and you're going against Trump, do you try and out crazy him, or do you simply stand up to him? I see no reason to believe anyone on the GOP side that would try and stand up to him without going the 'out crazy' route currently, but I just would think if someone consistently calls out Trump on the campaign trail and than laughs/mocks Trump's comebacks, it could change a lot of Trump diehards fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 2 hours ago, CMRivdogs said: Anyone who straddles the Trump fence eventually ends up under the bus sooner or later. "Everything Trump touches, dies." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 3 hours ago, oblong said: The key is to get all the dumb people to go back to not being interested in politics. I saw an article, that I didn't read completely, that blamed MTV and Bill Clinton. That helped make politics "cool" in the writer's mind. It's a stretch and not completely valid but there's some truth to the sentiment. I think Trumpism made politics interesting to a certain element that otherwise stayed home because they think everybody's crooked so they don't bother voting. We need to get back to that. I blame Facebook. Before it was harder to share your unhinged conspiracy theories and harder to find people who shared them. I've found out a lot about people I thought I knew once Facebook came around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 2 hours ago, mtutiger said: It's not all that surprising to me.... why go for Rhonda Santis when you can get the pure uncut product straight from the source? I know a few MAGA who are... not actually MAGA. They are hardcore Republicans, I would say establishment, except they are hard-core Republican enough to go whichever way the wind blows and will get more Pubs seated (in any position). They fully bought in to MAGA. But the questions I get from them, especially since Jan 6th, is: "Well OK, Trump sucks.. but WHAT DO YOU THINK of DeSantis!!!" As if an Independent, fiercely anti-Fascist like myself would actually be interested in another Trump 2.0-lite version of a fascist dictator. I called him another wannabe fascist who tramples over everyone's civil rights... like a dictator. I don't know why they didn't like that response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 (edited) 41 minutes ago, ewsieg said: An overall sentiment I see from the Bullwark folks is that if you want to beat Trump, you have to go at him. Sitting back and hoping everyone forms around you isn't going to work. The second part of that is if you agree with this and you're going against Trump, do you try and out crazy him, or do you simply stand up to him? I see no reason to believe anyone on the GOP side that would try and stand up to him without going the 'out crazy' route currently, but I just would think if someone consistently calls out Trump on the campaign trail and than laughs/mocks Trump's comebacks, it could change a lot of Trump diehards fast. It won't work, Trump will just make goofy faces and then insult his competitor. That will be good enough for the diehards. Trump has never said anything of substance in over 40 years. He is not going to start now. Edited February 1, 2023 by Tiger337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 4 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: I know a few MAGA who are... not actually MAGA. They are hardcore Republicans, I would say establishment, except they are hard-core Republican enough to go whichever way the wind blows and will get more Pubs seated (in any position). They fully bought in to MAGA. But the questions I get from them, especially since Jan 6th, is: "Well OK, Trump sucks.. but WHAT DO YOU THINK of DeSantis!!!" As if an Independent, fiercely anti-Fascist like myself would actually be interested in another Trump 2.0-lite version of a fascist dictator. I called him another wannabe fascist who tramples over everyone's civil rights... like a dictator. I don't know why they didn't like that response. DeSantis is just the boring version of Trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 41 minutes ago, ewsieg said: An overall sentiment I see from the Bullwark folks is that if you want to beat Trump, you have to go at him. Sitting back and hoping everyone forms around you isn't going to work. The second part of that is if you agree with this and you're going against Trump, do you try and out crazy him, or do you simply stand up to him? Personally, I want my establishment Republicans back because I can't stand the Tea Party and MAGA "FU America" Republicans. 41 minutes ago, ewsieg said: ... I just would think if someone consistently calls out Trump on the campaign trail and than laughs/mocks Trump's comebacks, it could change a lot of Trump diehards fast. I agree... they're going to have to come after Trump to defeat him, and then live with the consequences. I don't know if, as a party, they are ready to take that measure. They have a huge fear of losing those votes. But in my opinion, they have to stand up to TFG. Taken from a different POV: I am pretty certain that the Republicans know that if Trump gains the nomination, they lose the election, and maybe additional seats in the Senate or House... So... WHAT measures will they be willing to take to get someone else the nomination.? How far will they go? Because they know that they HAVE to have a different nominee, but how do you do that without losing either the MAGA vote, or Trump going off on a 3rd Party bender, which will destroy Republican chances and other offices (not just President) if he does that. They're in a tricky spot, right now, to say the least. But I'm glad... and they need to get through this "reformation" before I ever take them seriously again... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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