2024 Presidential Election thread

[CMRivdogs]

40 minutes ago, chasfh said:

It's not escaping my notice that no actual Muslim leaders are even mentioned in the press release, so its provenance is, at the very least, suspect. This might as well be a missive straight from Trump campaign headquarters, aka the Kremlin.

Not for nothing, the guy's X feed is extremely pro-Trump.

Not for anything but wouldn't a Muslim ban run counter to the First Amendment? 
Freedom of religion. Especially since several of the founders fought extremely hard for that particular clause.

The idea of a Christian Nation under any President comes extremely close to the Church of England that the "Patriots" fought to rid themselves from. It just wasn't over tea and taxes

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, chasfh said:

Meaning there are people who truly believe Biden stole the election working in various state houses and whatnot. Horrifying as being a true believer in this is, it's dishonest only if they know for a fact it's all a lie. If they truly believe it, they can be said honestly argue their case. That's what I mean.

I have a different version of that:

Basically, I 100% disagree. This is why:

IMO, if someone's "belief" is based on a lie, then it's not "honest", it is, simply, a "lie". Whether they are lying to themselves, or have been lied to and fallen for a lie, or don't have the capacity to differentiate between the truth and a lie... or for any reason, if someone is perpetuating a lie than they are still, in fact, a liar and not honest.

Conveniently, MAGA is simply following Trump's lead. Who created the lie of the election being stolen prior to a single vote even being cast. Also conveniently, following Trump's lead allows someone to "pretend" to be a true believer and to "honestly" argue that Biden actually "stole" the election, based on what Trump is "sayin'"...

They are all liars. IMO.

[ewsieg]

15 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

I have a different version of that:

Basically, I 100% disagree. This is why:

IMO, if someone's "belief" is based on a lie, then it's not "honest", it is, simply, a "lie". Whether they are lying to themselves, or have been lied to and fallen for a lie, or don't have the capacity to differentiate between the truth and a lie... or for any reason, if someone is perpetuating a lie than they are still, in fact, a liar and not honest.

Conveniently, MAGA is simply following Trump's lead. Who created the lie of the election being stolen prior to a single vote even being cast. Also conveniently, following Trump's lead allows someone to "pretend" to be a true believer and to "honestly" argue that Biden actually "stole" the election, based on what Trump is "sayin'"...

They are all liars. IMO.

Prior to Trump winning, I can give you dozens of quotes from Hillary, Stacy Abrams, so many folks from MSNBC, and so on talking about stolen elections.  They had no problem saying this and their followers had no problem believing it.  Heck, i'm sure you probably still think Russia is the reason why Trump beat Hillary.  

Therefore, I deem you and all your side liars and hence you can't put anyone on the ballot I don't like either.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I actually think there a LOT of people like that..like the majority of Trump supporters.  

Sure, i would expect that, but they don't know any better.

[chasfh]

26 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

I have a different version of that:

Basically, I 100% disagree. This is why:

IMO, if someone's "belief" is based on a lie, then it's not "honest", it is, simply, a "lie".

That's because you're super emotional and can't think your way past that.

[1984Echoes]

2 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Prior to Trump winning, I can give you dozens of quotes from Hillary, Stacy Abrams, so many folks from MSNBC, and so on talking about stolen elections.  They had no problem saying this and their followers had no problem believing it.  Heck, i'm sure you probably still think Russia is the reason why Trump beat Hillary.  

Therefore, I deem you and all your side liars and hence you can't put anyone on the ballot I don't like either.

I'm an Independent, so I don't have a side.

Russia is NOT the reason Hillary lost to Trump.

Russia however, DID interfere with our election. But I would call that a contributing, not deciding factor.

Trump attempted to overthrow the Constitution of the United States with a violent coup attempt. That is a VALID reason under Constitutional Amendment 14 to remove Trump from the presidential ballot.

Hillary never attempted that.

Like it... or not.

Sorry.

[1984Echoes]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

That's because you're super emotional and can't think your way past that.

I have thought my way through that absolutely.

I've lived my entire under your version. It takes a thought, not emotion, to reason out why it shouldn't be that way...

[oblong]

There’s lots of people who honestly think it was stolen because of the lies they have been fed. They lack the ability or courage to dig deeper.  The truth doesn’t change because of that but if you going to analyze human behavior you need to understand their beliefs, regardless whether they are correct or accurate. Otherwise you get flawed results. 

[1984Echoes]

2 minutes ago, oblong said:

There’s lots of people who honestly think it was stolen because of the lies they have been fed. They lack the ability or courage to dig deeper.  The truth doesn’t change because of that but if you going to analyze human behavior you need to understand their beliefs, regardless whether they are correct or accurate. Otherwise you get flawed results. 

Which adds nuance.

How can one tell if someone is very naive and "falls" for a lie easily or innocently... or if someone is opportunistically purveying a lie to further their schemes?

There are both.

[oblong]

47 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

I have a different version of that:

Basically, I 100% disagree. This is why:

IMO, if someone's "belief" is based on a lie, then it's not "honest", it is, simply, a "lie". Whether they are lying to themselves, or have been lied to and fallen for a lie, or don't have the capacity to differentiate between the truth and a lie... or for any reason, if someone is perpetuating a lie than they are still, in fact, a liar and not honest.

 

You are confused and making this into semantics. Nobody is saying they are honest, as in you can trust them to hold $100 for you for a few days or that they won’t cheat on an exam. Not that type of honesty. 
 

what is meant in this context is how their belief is formed in their heart. Someone like Trump or Kari Lake or Guiliani all say what they do for personal gain. They know it’s bull****.  All the grifters too. Tucker. Levin. Conway.  But a big portion of the general public do not have that same motivation. They believe the lies they are told. In that sense their belief is honest because their motive is not personal gain. That distinction is important to know if you want to try to predict future behavior. You have to know the why. 
 

there are people who honestly believe essential oils work. If you wish to market to people and predict their behavior then you as an analyst have to accept that even though it’s ridiculous.  

[1984Echoes]

2 minutes ago, oblong said:

... . Someone like Trump or Kari Lake or Guiliani all say what they do for personal gain. They know it’s bull****.  All the grifters too. Tucker. Levin. Conway.  But a big portion of the general public do not have that same motivation....

And what I am saying is that a big portion of the general public DO have the same motivation.

A big portion KNOW it's a lie but purvey it anyways because it suits their purpose.

A big portion KNOW it's a lie but purvey it anyways because their hatred of Democrats supercedes their honesty.

A big portion KNOW it's a lie but prefer to go "gaga" over Trump, as their savior, and repeat his every word rather than have an honest conversation or to think for themselves. You could call these "true believers" if you so wish. But people who know better, and hand over their capacity for judgement/ honesty/ etc... to a "leader", such as Trump... I call "sheep".

There may be a big portion who do NOT know that they are being lied to, or have the capacity to differentiate... but I believe this immensely lower than those that KNOW it's a lie.

This is not an issue of me needing to market to people with different beliefs or values...

This boils down to cynicism. Or maybe "Truthsense" if you are a lover of "Dune". 

Or maybe I am just oversensitive to being lied to. As chas alluded to with my "super emotionals"....

[gehringer_2]

54 minutes ago, oblong said:

There’s lots of people who honestly think it was stolen because of the lies they have been fed. They lack the ability or courage to dig deeper.  The truth doesn’t change because of that but if you going to analyze human behavior you need to understand their beliefs, regardless whether they are correct or accurate. Otherwise you get flawed results. 

People mostly 'believe' lies that make them comfortable in their pre-existing prejudices. To a degree I will defend and agree with '84 that there is a level of dishonesty at work where people are claiming 'belief' because they willfully refuse to 'let' themselves know/learn what is true. They make a conscious choice to protect themselves from the truth. I wouldn't justify people like that either.

Edited December 21, 2023 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

37 minutes ago, oblong said:

You are confused and making this into semantics. Nobody is saying they are honest, as in you can trust them to hold $100 for you for a few days or that they won’t cheat on an exam. Not that type of honesty. 
 

what is meant in this context is how their belief is formed in their heart. Someone like Trump or Kari Lake or Guiliani all say what they do for personal gain. They know it’s bull****.  All the grifters too. Tucker. Levin. Conway.  But a big portion of the general public do not have that same motivation. They believe the lies they are told. In that sense their belief is honest because their motive is not personal gain. That distinction is important to know if you want to try to predict future behavior. You have to know the why. 
 

I think a lot of it has to do with the black-and-white version of the world people are brought up in. Right and wrong. Good and evil. God and Satan. It's either all one or all the other. They don't learn about shades or gray when they're little, probably because their parents and teachers don't know much about it, and when they're confronted with it as adults, they get confused and annoyed and suspicious and reject it. I think that's why so many people fall prey to charlatans: believing in the absolutism of good and evil yields easy answers, and when charlatans merely cloak themselves in the trappings of what's considered good, simple people accept them without question.

I think America, as a society with a high percentage of its people steeped in judgmental religion, is more susceptible to his line of thinking than most countries, or at least most first-world countries. It's almost as though we're a first-world country with a third-world culture, and even people who aren't religious, or who reject religion, people who consider themselves educated and worldly, are affected by it, I think. It's mostly harmless, until the moment it's not.

[1984Echoes]

10 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

People mostly 'believe' lies that make them comfortable in their pre-existing prejudices. To a degree I will defend and agree with '84 that there is a level of dishonesty at work where people are claiming 'belief' because they willfully refuse to 'let' themselves know/learn what is true. They make a conscious choice to protect themselves from the truth. I wouldn't justify people like that either.

This is SPECIFICALLY what I am speaking to...

[1984Echoes]

12 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

People mostly 'believe' lies that make them comfortable in their pre-existing prejudices. To a degree I will defend and agree with '84 that there is a level of dishonesty at work where people are claiming 'belief' because they willfully refuse to 'let' themselves know/learn what is true. They make a conscious choice to protect themselves from the truth. I wouldn't justify people like that either.

Either this...

Or people who CHOOSE to purvey a lie, for ulterior motives.

It is my contention that a vast number of MAGA who state that Biden "stole the election" KNOW that it is a lie... but CHOOSE to purvey the lie or proffer their belief in such a lie as a cover for supporting Trump. Their motives are some that I outlined above: They hate Democrats so much that they use the lie to support that hatred, or they prefer Trump's politics even if they know he is disgusting in order to provide cover for their love of his politics: "But Trump had the election STOLEN and therefore he SHOULD be President! I'm voting for him in 2024, guaranteed".

I don't believe there are a lot of "innocent" MAGA... I believe that most of them KNOW it's a lie but are using it for cover.

IMO.

[Tiger337]

30 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

People mostly 'believe' lies that make them comfortable in their pre-existing prejudices. To a degree I will defend and agree with '84 that there is a level of dishonesty at work where people are claiming 'belief' because they willfully refuse to 'let' themselves know/learn what is true. They make a conscious choice to protect themselves from the truth. I wouldn't justify people like that either.

but, in many cases, their pre-existing prejudices were forcefully confirmed to them by people with an agenda.  They believe it to be true.  

Edited December 21, 2023 by Tiger337

[Tiger337]

12 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Either this...

Or people who CHOOSE to purvey a lie, for ulterior motives.

It is my contention that a vast number of MAGA who state that Biden "stole the election" KNOW that it is a lie... but CHOOSE to purvey the lie or proffer their belief in such a lie as a cover for supporting Trump. Their motives are some that I outlined above: They hate Democrats so much that they use the lie to support that hatred, or they prefer Trump's politics even if they know he is disgusting in order to provide cover for their love of his politics: "But Trump had the election STOLEN and therefore he SHOULD be President! I'm voting for him in 2024, guaranteed".

I don't believe there are a lot of "innocent" MAGA... I believe that most of them KNOW it's a lie but are using it for cover.

IMO.

I know people who honestly believe the election was stolen. They honestly don't get how the great Donald Trump could possibly lose a fair election.  They live in their bubble and some lefties live in bubbles too.   

[1984Echoes]

19 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I know people who honestly believe the election was stolen. They honestly don't get how the great Donald Trump could possibly lose a fair election.  They live in their bubble and some lefties live in bubbles too.   

So in my original divergent opinion I stated I disagree 100%.

I must admit...

That was a lie.

I know some of the same type of people as you've outlined.

But I know a vast amount of dudes that are lying on purpose and, funny enough, they will admit that they are lying on purpose, for ulterior motives. I believe there are a vast amount of MAGA who are doing this.

But 100%?

No, that was not reasonable...

An exact %...? Too hard to know... It's not 100%... those would be the people you've mentioned...

But it's not 0 either... and I believe the final actual % to be a whole lot closer to 100 than 0...

[1984Echoes]

One further point:

MAGA made a concerted effort to expel anyone who did not support Trump. Or his lies.

They KNEW it was a lie (but let's throw some gray in here and say only a % were doing this even knowing Trump was lying... What % would that be?)... but if you didn't support Trump and his lies MAGA made an organized effort to eliminate politicians in primaries or otherwise, from office. "You either believe the lie I'm telling you or we're kicking you out."

Again, what %-age of MAGA participated in this?

A very high %-age, not out of innocence or "true belief", IMO.  Very high.

[ewsieg]

6 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

One further point:

MAGA made a concerted effort to expel anyone who did not support Trump. Or his lies.

They KNEW it was a lie (but let's throw some gray in here and say only a % were doing this even knowing Trump was lying... What % would that be?)... but if you didn't support Trump and his lies MAGA made an organized effort to eliminate politicians in primaries or otherwise, from office. "You either believe the lie I'm telling you or we're kicking you out."

Again, what %-age of MAGA participated in this?

A very high %-age, not out of innocence or "true belief", IMO.  Very high.

Absolutely true when you're talking about elected GOP members of congress.  But even for them, when they talk behind closed doors, they feel they have to flirt with the MAGA side so they are in power and they only trust themselves to make the right decisions for our country.  If they decry Trump, a true MAGA may take their seat.  There is an argument that they are staying in power, by any means necessary, to stop something should it really get to a point congress needs to stop Trump and that is the greater good.  Granted, I tend to argue that they are $#@#$^ pussies, but again, there is a legitimate argument both ways.  If they are lying, but deep down truly feel they have to in order to keep a true MAGA out of congress, are they heroes or traitors?  

[1984Echoes]

53 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Absolutely true when you're talking about elected GOP members of congress.  But even for them, when they talk behind closed doors, they feel they have to flirt with the MAGA side so they are in power and they only trust themselves to make the right decisions for our country.  If they decry Trump, a true MAGA may take their seat.  There is an argument that they are staying in power, by any means necessary, to stop something should it really get to a point congress needs to stop Trump and that is the greater good.  Granted, I tend to argue that they are $#@#$^ pussies, but again, there is a legitimate argument both ways.  If they are lying, but deep down truly feel they have to in order to keep a true MAGA out of congress, are they heroes or traitors?  

The politicians themselves?

I think I spoke about the previously indirectly but let me do the direct thing...

For those against Trump... but keeping their heads low so as not to get tossed out... I agree with you 100%. That they are both heroes and cowards. Cowards for not speaking truth to power... but heroes in that they are walking amidst a violent mob screaming for the head of anyone defying Trump. And staying in power to stop Trump "for the greater good".

But...

I don't think there are very many of those at all. The ones who did have the courage, previously, to speak truth to power and fight against Trump's lies and fascism... have already been tossed out on their heads. That would be Kinzinger, Cheney, and the others who voted Trump guilty in his impeachment trials and are no longer in Congress by MAGA voters revenge. 

Any who more closely resemble your description... I believe have been sniffed out by MAGA as "not true believers" and have also been primaried. Nastier MAGA Reps were voted into Congress as a replacement, or an unelectable MAGA candidate lost to a Dem. I think those who more closely resemble your description have been whittled down. To what number, I don't know.

There are also a lot of politician Republicans who are now currently denouncing Trumpism/ fascism... so they cannot be true believers... and they may, or may not survive the next election... But they HAVE differentiated themselves from MAGA.

I bolded the main part above where I speak specifically to your question and am in agreement. Everything else is added flavorings...

[Sports_Freak]

22 hours ago, oblong said:

The CO ruling is fun but I fully expect the SC to shoot it down so I’m not really giving it much thought.  

That's my thought as well. I don't like it but the corruption never ends...

[Sports_Freak]

14 hours ago, ewsieg said:

Prior to Trump winning, I can give you dozens of quotes from Hillary, Stacy Abrams, so many folks from MSNBC, and so on talking about stolen elections.  They had no problem saying this and their followers had no problem believing it.  Heck, i'm sure you probably still think Russia is the reason why Trump beat Hillary.  

Therefore, I deem you and all your side liars and hence you can't put anyone on the ballot I don't like either.

So let's see these quotes "you can show us".

[Sports_Freak]

14 hours ago, oblong said:

There’s lots of people who honestly think it was stolen because of the lies they have been fed. They lack the ability or courage to dig deeper.  The truth doesn’t change because of that but if you going to analyze human behavior you need to understand their beliefs, regardless whether they are correct or accurate. Otherwise you get flawed results. 

The orange doofus was calling it rigged even before the election. 

[pfife]

15 hours ago, ewsieg said:

Prior to Trump winning, I can give you dozens of quotes from Hillary, Stacy Abrams, so many folks from MSNBC, and so on talking about stolen elections.  They had no problem saying this and their followers had no problem believing it.  Heck, i'm sure you probably still think Russia is the reason why Trump beat Hillary.  

Therefore, I deem you and all your side liars and hence you can't put anyone on the ballot I don't like either.

So you're saying they did not engage in insurrection?