oblong Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 ane once people reach their 80s they tend to do that... the internal filter stops working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 7 hours ago, romad1 said: The ones who want a dictatorship are not. They are voting on their blood and soil nationalism. Right—which they are conflating with "democracy", because that's what they are being told their very strong feelings are about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 4 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Red hats don't believe we are a democracy. I'm frequently told we are a republic and not a democracy by red hats and conservatives. It's true that when they want to argue against "Democrats" (i.e., anyone who is not MAGA), they will insist we are a republic and not a democracy, because they are Republicans—otherwise they would be democrats, and that would be ridiculous. And yet, they still believe, and are mighty concerned, that democracy is at stake and that Joe Biden and the Democrat party must be destroyed to preserve it. See this, this, this, and this. Yes, that is not consistent thinking, but they never were consistent thinkers, although they will argue that they are the only consistent thinkers, and that you and I are also not only not consistent thinkers, but are ourselves a grave threat to democracy. It doesn't make sense, and it doesn't have to, and yet they will insist it does make sense, and that we don't make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 8 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Red hats don't believe we are a democracy. I'm frequently told we are a republic and not a democracy by red hats and conservatives. I say 'republic' now, so I guess this fits me. That said, I say republic because I got roasted on this site for saying we were a democracy years back. There are some that truly believe the election was stolen, thus they don't believe in democracy/republic/democratic republic anymore, but most of the Trump folks I know simply want to burn it down and seem to think we'll be better to start fresh. As with most people, they don't follow politics/news/business enough to truly understand what 'burning it down' would entail. Both sides have been telling the other how the other side wants to destroy America. It's not that the Trumpers picked a side, it's that they ended up believing both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 54 minutes ago, ewsieg said: thus they don't believe in democracy/republic/democratic republic anymore, But it's not because they think an election was stolen, it's exactly because they do know after all that is wasn't. The US actually does need a new Constitutional convention because the existing setup one has produced a government that has become strongly unbalanced in an anti-democratic direction - but it's to the advantage of the Reds. So for them reform toward more democracy is a losing proposition and they know it. That's why the specter of Strong Man/Fascist government doesn't move them to fear, they know if that figure comes in the name of protecting their prerogatives they will not be worse off than if the proper voting power were actually to flow the majority of people, who don't share their politics, and they lose their position of minority control or at least outsized minority leverage. It's actually rational behavior not based on a false premise but the real situation. The false premise is just the cover - a way to justify refusing to keep playing the democracy game if it means they will be the ones losing elections. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) But one other question does merit being raised - why at this point in history? Power has swung back and forth between liberal and conservative forces before (and at least since 1863) without either side deciding they had to take their ball and go home. I can only conclude that the problem this time is the people on the other side look less alike than they used to. When one group of white fraternity bros from Yale was losing to another maybe from State U, that was all in the family. But when the folks on the other side don't like your churches, tell you your ideas about human sexuality are anchored in ancient prejudices and on top of it all, they are so many different skin colors, then it all becomes too much. Edited February 1 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 10 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: But one other question does merit being raised - why at this point in history? Power has swung back and forth between liberal and conservative forces before (and at least since 1863) without either side deciding they had to take their ball and go home. I can only conclude that the problem this time is the people on the other side look less alike than they used to. When one group of white fraternity bros from Yale was losing to another maybe from State U, that was all in the family. But when the folks on the other side don't like your churches, tell you your ideas about human sexuality are anchored in ancient prejudices and on top of it all, they are so many different skin colors, then it all becomes too much. In other words... Our current state of the country is due to, simply: White Trash Bigotry. That's it. It's nothing more than that. Trump's BS, the lies... all of that is just cover, as you've stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 10 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: But it's not because they think an election was stolen, it's exactly because they do know after all that is wasn't. The US actually does need a new Constitutional convention because the existing setup one has produced a government that has become strongly unbalanced in an anti-democratic direction - but it's to the advantage of the Reds. So for them reform toward more democracy is a losing proposition and they know it. That's why the specter of Strong Man/Fascist government doesn't move them to fear, they know if that figure comes in the name of protecting their prerogatives they will not be worse off than if the proper voting power were actually to flow the majority of people, who don't share their politics, and they lose their position of minority control or at least outsized minority leverage. It's actually rational behavior not based on a false premise but the real situation. The false premise is just the cover - a way to justify refusing to keep playing the democracy game if it means they will be the ones losing elections. I'm not saying there aren't people that are like what you describe, but as a whole I think you're misguided. There is no advantage for the GOP here. Right now, for the politicians, yes, they have to play the Trump game. It allows them to stay in power in red districts/states and for independent/blue states, it allows them to stay in the party should it ever turn around, but they know they will lose elections until Trump is gone. Eventually it will force a change in the party in order to win elections. Without the unique ability of Trump, I'm confident you would have already seen that. And in today's world, who cares about who shares their politics. If it weren't for Sanders primary voters voting for Trump over Hillary, we may not have ever had Trump. They couldn't be any further politically, but the message resonates the same. That message is powerful people are taking advantage of the government and you, and there is no politician that is going to do a damn thing about it. That's why the Strong Man/Fascist view resonates, because for years, both sides says the other side is stopping progress from fixing issues. They are finally believing both sides and figure it's the only option to fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 19 minutes ago, ewsieg said: That message is powerful people are taking advantage of the government and you, and there is no politician that is going to do a damn thing about it. That's why the Strong Man/Fascist view resonates, because for years, both sides says the other side is stopping progress from fixing issues. They are finally believing both sides and figure it's the only option to fix it. So, they rally around a weathy powerful conman who takes advantage of the government. That's the part that makes no sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: So, they rally around a weathy powerful conman who takes advantage of the government. That's the part that makes no sense. Democrats loved tariffs, then Trump imposed them and every democrat said they were the dumbest thing in the world. Biden kept them in place and it's a non story now. Lots of things don't make sense to sensible people. I don't think we're dealing with that with the Trumpers. Edited February 1 by ewsieg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gilmore Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Eric, could you provide specifics to your claim that Dems loved tariffs/then hated them/Biden kept them in place. And not just fringe Dems, or opinion pieces. For the record the Biden administration did retain some tariffs, but dropped others. Tariffs may effect some voters deciding who to vote for, but choosing Trump to fix international economics indicates a limited grasp of reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) Trump has no ****ing clue. As an Independent, if that matters... I have always been against tariffs. Not $0... I understand the reasoning behind the past 50 years of tariffs philosophy (trying to create a level playing field, reduce when coming into agreement with another country (ies), use them punitively/ judiciously when certain punishments are warranted.) For example, I understand and agree when punitive tariffs are used against China: WHEN they are "dumping" product into the US. Edited February 1 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 At least from the Clinton "New Democrats" movement the Dems have been big time globalists and Biden is the 1st Democratic President to push back against that in any serious way so I wouldn't say it is accurate to say "Dems love tariffs" is applicable to much recent history. They may not have been as radically globalist as some in the GOP, but there was very little dissent from free-trade conventional wisdom from either party for 30 yrs or more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Thread: Worth reading in its entirety, but the upshot being that the Trump campaign is likely to have a lot of money issues in 2024. Particularly with all the legal bills that Trump himself is facing 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Jesus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 2 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Jesus ORANGE Jesus!!! Make certain you get that right... Although, maybe soon it could be Orange Jesus in an Orange Jumpsuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Where the US has lost it's way on international trade and tariffs is not on the issue of tariffs per se - they are just a means to some particular end in a given situation. The paradigm error has been the belief in the myth of 'comparative advantage,' which has led the US to be far too sanguine about ceding away economic capacity in far too many spheres. Comparative advantage is a myth for much of the world's GDP activity. Sure, Chile may have copper and Ukraine may have rich soil, but there are virtually no significant innate geographical or resource advantages in the vast majority of the production cases that generate wealth around today's world economy. The real drivers of what we often accepted as 'comparative advantage' has in many cases been one of two things: active industrial policies on the part of the nations we compete with and the offshoring of environmental and pollution hazards to countries more willing to subject their citizens to the risks. But for much of the modern tech economy, nations can become 'comparatively' efficient producers of most anything they *choose* to. And this can hold even in cases where one might think geographic or resources comparative advantage should come into play. For instance, even when the US was importing a high percentage of our oil supplies, we had one of the worlds more efficient (i.e. "advantaged") refining industries. To come full circle, tariffs have been the tool of choice for US competitors to create much of the 'comparative' advantage that mushy brained US economic leaders have rolled over for as inevitabilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 7 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: ORANGE Jesus!!! Make certain you get that right... Although, maybe soon it could be Orange Jesus in an Orange Jumpsuit. The whole operation reminds me of family in The Righteous Gemstones - with absolutely none of the charm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 18 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said: Speaking of elections, I know some people who won't be a part of the next one. good on them. But parenthetically, the wrong solution to the problem. I would say the real problem is with Oregon's quorum rule for the legislature. If they had simply gone to the normal system where who-ever shows up is the quorum, then the GOP would never have had any leverage by walking out. Now they have almost certainly created a rat's nest of future complexity and lawsuits over what an excused absence is and who is doing the deciding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 8 hours ago, ewsieg said: Democrats loved tariffs, then Trump imposed them and every democrat said they were the dumbest thing in the world. Biden kept them in place and it's a non story now. Lots of things don't make sense to sensible people. I don't think we're dealing with that with the Trumpers. Do your MAGA friends like Trump because they think he gives a **** about anyhing other than his own fame/fortune or because they think he'll burn it down by default? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 44 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said: "DARK BRANDON, UNLEASHED!!!" Coming soon, to an election near you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 1 hour ago, CMRivdogs said: There's probably a non-trivial number of Trump voters that would agree with his assessment behind closed doors lol I detest how angry and heated politics has become and would prefer that he continue to try to hold to some level of decorum. But realistically, I don't think he'd lose much by starting to call him out more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 12 hours ago, Tiger337 said: So, they rally around a weathy powerful conman who takes advantage of the government. That's the part that makes no sense. technically he takes advantage of everyone and everything, the government happens to fit in those categories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 Trump didn't enact tariffs for the reasons you typically would hear for enacting them. 84 is right, Trump is an idiot. He did it because he's under the misguided perception that having a trade deficit means you're losing so he was solely trying to change the trade deficit numbers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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