2024 Presidential Election thread

[romad1]

 

She responded 

[MichiganCardinal]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

But they'll vote for him anyway.  

The problem isn't that they'll vote for him. It's that they won't vote at all, or will do something even dumber and vote for RFK or some other useless third party.

Trump has his base, Biden by and large has everybody else. The name of the game is solely about getting everybody else in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Arizona, Nevada, and Georgia to vote.

[Tiger337]

8 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

The problem isn't that they'll vote for him. It's that they won't vote at all, or will do something even dumber and vote for RFK or some other useless third party.

Trump has his base, Biden by and large has everybody else. The name of the game is solely about getting everybody else in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Arizona, Nevada, and Georgia to vote.

Turn out is always the big key for Democrats, but I still think there a lot of ignorant people who think that Trump is nasty and stupud, but good for the economy.  

[ewsieg]

Here is the problem MB, there have been legitimate questions for quite some time as to whether Biden was up for this or not.  In fact there were questions last time and in hindsight, It definitely looks like Covid and being able to hide from public events was a big factor for him. 

You need to stop believing the spin your side is feeding you that Biden just had a cold and an off night.  If my mom had 30 minutes like Biden had at the beginning of the debate, my brothers and I would be discussing what we're going to do with mom.  Likely we would have learned that each of us saw some signs prior as well, which has been reported recently, but cast away by folks like you as nothing but political hit pieces despite the fact democrats were sourced for those articles as well, they just didn't want to go on the record.

Nearly everyone on this board, assuming Biden is on the ballot, is going to vote for him.  If he has a heartbeat i'll vote for him, heck, if he dies prior to election day but is still on the ballot, i'm voting for him.   I just never thought i'd be voting for someone that I seriously thought might have trouble making it to election day, definitely would not complete his term, and even if he somehow did, I have 100% confidence that he would not be calling the shots.   That's just crazy.  It's not Donald Trump crazy, but it's still pretty ****ing crazy.

[pfife]

7 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

We just skip right over Trump is only 3 years younger, morbidly obese, couldn't stay awake during his trial, and slurs his speech at almost every rally. 

You may skip over it.  You probably wouldnt skip over it of trump was on the left or if he was Bernie sanders's press secretary. 

However "We" don't Skip over it.  

 

 

[mtutiger]

8 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

The problem isn't that they'll vote for him. It's that they won't vote at all, or will do something even dumber and vote for RFK or some other useless third party.

Trump has his base, Biden by and large has everybody else. The name of the game is solely about getting everybody else in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Arizona, Nevada, and Georgia to vote.

Exactly...

[mtutiger]

7 hours ago, ewsieg said:

Here is the problem MB, there have been legitimate questions for quite some time as to whether Biden was up for this or not.  In fact there were questions last time and in hindsight, It definitely looks like Covid and being able to hide from public events was a big factor for him. 

If you compare videos from then to now, even, it's clear that he held up better then even with more of the "front porch" style campaign. Was also just legit in better shape for years ago and was up to it at the time 

But the job of the Presidency ages people a lot... Even Barack Obama, as young and dynamic a President as I'll likely ever see in my lifetime, looked much older and lived in than when he left. 

I know it seems like I'm riding the fence in my views of this, which more of a testament to just how bad of an option Donald Trump is. But the situation just is what it is. And what concerns me politically is the high likelihood that, in a race that he entered the debate tied in nationally (which means more likely down in the EC), status quo or worse is just not good enough, and this subject looming overhead makes it nearly impossible to change the subject.

Especially with a press corps, annoying as they are, who are not likely to let up on this, even in the face of new news events. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I don't think this is ephemeral; it's going to linger for the rest of this campaign. In a campaign that badly needs a shakeup in dynamic

Edited July 1 by mtutiger

[Tiger337]

7 hours ago, ewsieg said:

Here is the problem MB, there have been legitimate questions for quite some time as to whether Biden was up for this or not.  In fact there were questions last time and in hindsight, It definitely looks like Covid and being able to hide from public events was a big factor for him. 

You need to stop believing the spin your side is feeding you that Biden just had a cold and an off night.  If my mom had 30 minutes like Biden had at the beginning of the debate, my brothers and I would be discussing what we're going to do with mom.  Likely we would have learned that each of us saw some signs prior as well, which has been reported recently, but cast away by folks like you as nothing but political hit pieces despite the fact democrats were sourced for those articles as well, they just didn't want to go on the record.

Nearly everyone on this board, assuming Biden is on the ballot, is going to vote for him.  If he has a heartbeat i'll vote for him, heck, if he dies prior to election day but is still on the ballot, i'm voting for him.   I just never thought i'd be voting for someone that I seriously thought might have trouble making it to election day, definitely would not complete his term, and even if he somehow did, I have 100% confidence that he would not be calling the shots.   That's just crazy.  It's not Donald Trump crazy, but it's still pretty ****ing crazy.

Biden was horrible in the debate and it wasn't an isolated incident.  Being able to speak extemporaneously is a very important skill in politics especially when campaigning and he no longer has that skill.  I don't really agree with your suggestion that he is in serious mental decline.  He may be, but the inability to talk smoothly would not suggest that.   Many of us would pobably perform just as poorly in a public debate. We, of course, are not running for President. 

Trump was just as bad in the debate as he was unable to answer any of the questions and all he did was deliver his set of canned talking points which often had nothing to do with the questions and were mostly false.  He said it all loudly and confidently though, so I guess that makes it OK.     

[Motown Bombers]

7 hours ago, ewsieg said:

Here is the problem MB, there have been legitimate questions for quite some time as to whether Biden was up for this or not.  In fact there were questions last time and in hindsight, It definitely looks like Covid and being able to hide from public events was a big factor for him. 

You need to stop believing the spin your side is feeding you that Biden just had a cold and an off night.  If my mom had 30 minutes like Biden had at the beginning of the debate, my brothers and I would be discussing what we're going to do with mom.  Likely we would have learned that each of us saw some signs prior as well, which has been reported recently, but cast away by folks like you as nothing but political hit pieces despite the fact democrats were sourced for those articles as well, they just didn't want to go on the record.

Nearly everyone on this board, assuming Biden is on the ballot, is going to vote for him.  If he has a heartbeat i'll vote for him, heck, if he dies prior to election day but is still on the ballot, i'm voting for him.   I just never thought i'd be voting for someone that I seriously thought might have trouble making it to election day, definitely would not complete his term, and even if he somehow did, I have 100% confidence that he would not be calling the shots.   That's just crazy.  It's not Donald Trump crazy, but it's still pretty ****ing crazy.

My father is 77 and has early stages of dementia. My uncle was 80 and died last week and had dementia. My dad has sundowning syndrome. Unlike Biden, he doesn't get better as the evening wears on. Biden was accurately recalling facts the entire debate. My dad couldn't recall a fact told to him five minutes ago. Biden is not quick with the tongue anymore. His speech is slow and lacks energy, however, he still accurately recalled facts and thoughtfully answered the moderators questions. I don't see many people actually saying what Biden said was inaccurate. He then followed that up with a focused and energized rally the next morning. Biden also has a stutter and symptoms of stuttering are freezing and not being able to start words. Bottom line, Biden knows what he's doing. It's weird how everyone says he's in mental decline but don't call on him to resign. 

BTW Biden is in excellent physical health. I trust his doctor more than Trump's. Biden bikes daily. Trump is more likely to not make it to election day.

[Motown Bombers]

 

[mtutiger]

2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

My father is 77 and has early stages of dementia. My uncle was 80 and died last week and had dementia. My dad has sundowning syndrome. Unlike Biden, he doesn't get better as the evening wears on. Biden was accurately recalling facts the entire debate. My dad couldn't recall a fact told to him five minutes ago. Biden is not quick with the tongue anymore. His speech is slow and lacks energy, however, he still accurately recalled facts and thoughtfully answered the moderators questions. I don't see many people actually saying what Biden said was inaccurate. He then followed that up with a focused and energized rally the next morning. Biden also has a stutter and symptoms of stuttering are freezing and not being able to start words. Bottom line, Biden knows what he's doing. It's weird how everyone says he's in mental decline but don't call on him to resign. 

BTW Biden is in excellent physical health. I trust his doctor more than Trump's. Biden bikes daily. Trump is more likely to not make it to election day.

I think Biden *today* is more qualified for the job, without a doubt. Trump was that bad as President, and is that bad today in terms of where he is mentally. 

But he's a candidate for this office and it falls on him and his campaign to convince the majority that he is up for it. And he simply failed at doing so and has largely not moved the needle on this over the course of this campaign.

I feel firm in my conviction on what I said in the first paragraph, but I'm not going to live in denial on this, the majority in this country disagrees with me and most people on this board. And it's hard to see how the needle starts to move in the correct direction with some four months left in this campaign

[oblong]

I think the idea that "the presidency ages people" is not quite right.  When you look at people like Clinton, Bush, and Obama... yes they looked "older" after 8 years, but that's because... they are 8 years older.  People age, especially when you get that time frame in life-mid to late 40s and mid 50's.  You don't see much difference in people between ages 25-45, but after that you get wrinkles and gray hair and age spots, etc.  I'm 50 and seeing that myself.    Facebook Memories is great for that. 

But Presidents have accesst to the best doctors and chefs around and we've seen they all have been living very long lives afterward so I'm not sure the "job ages you" thing is quite true. 

 

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, mtutiger said:

I think Biden *today* is more qualified for the job, without a doubt. Trump was that bad as President, and is that bad today in terms of where he is mentally. 

But he's a candidate for this office and it falls on him and his campaign to convince the majority that he is up for it. And he simply failed at doing so and has largely not moved the needle on this over the course of this campaign.

I feel firm in my conviction on what I said in the first paragraph, but I'm not going to live in denial on this, the majority in this country disagrees with me and most people on this board. And it's hard to see how the needle starts to move in the correct direction with some four months left in this campaign

I disagree. Everything leading up to this debate showed Biden was ahead. He didn't hurt his position and may have slightly gained. That's not bad considering debating is his biggest weakness. It's June for Christ sakes. Biden has been raking in a ton of cash sine the debate. Most of it grassroots and over half first time donors. If his candidacy was that dire, people wouldn't be putting their money on it. Dems need to grow some balls and change their soiled underpants. 

[chasfh]

15 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

What a total misread. Johnson didn't withdraw because it was 'popular' he withdrew because he didn't want to be embarrassed by losing the nomination in a party that wanted the war over (or alternately splitting the party so badly he couldn't win). Johnson was at the end of his rope over Vietnam - he had no idea what to do next and everyone, including LBJ, realized he was paralyzed. He knew if he pulled the plug the US public - the voting public that had won WWII, would never accept a 'loss' (which in 68 was absolutely still the case), but he also was figuring out that the DOD had no idea how to win either.

Plus it is widely accepted that Humphrey was gaining so fast on Nixon at the end that he may very well have won, but for Nixon explicitly sabotaging Johnson’s agreement with Vietnam to end the war.

[chasfh]

13 hours ago, Hongbit said:

This isn’t about losing a debate.  I personally think he won the debate handily.

I don’t think Biden won it handily at all. He came out of the box rushing his words; he failed to stay on track and finish his sentences effectively; and he let Trump’s worst lies go almost completely unchallenged. None of these have to do with his looking old and vacant, except for the possibility that he knew right away he was really ****ing up and got completely inside his own head about it. He may have done better later in the debate, but by that point, it was just too late. You just don’t get a second chance to make a first impression.

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Plus it is widely accepted that Humphrey was gaining so fast on Nixon at the end that he may very well have won, but for Nixon explicitly sabotaging Johnson’s agreement with Vietnam to end the war.

Dems had a big hole to dig out of after the mess at the Chicago convention. The country wasn't used to seeing that kind of thing - it must have been the Dems' fault. Mayor Daley made it easy for anti-war liberals to hate their party, the anti-war side made it easy for the Scoop Jackson wing (the anti-commies) to hate their party.

Edited July 1 by gehringer_2

[Motown Bombers]

 

[chasfh]

11 hours ago, mtutiger said:

I like Sarah Longwell, but just pretending Kamala Harris isn't a factor is as delusional as manu people think Biden's campaign is IMO

Honest hypothetical question: if Biden were to have to pull out, should Kamala Harris be the nominee because she clearly is the best candidate who can beat Trump? Or should she be the nominee because she’s the vice president now so she’s next in line and people have to be fair and wait their turn?

I can’t say I know for a fact that anyone is better than Kamala on beating Trump, because it is all a great unknown.

[Motown Bombers]

4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Dems had a big hole to dig out of after the mess at the Chicago convention. The country wasn't used to seeing that kind of thing - it must have been the Dems' fault. Mayor Daley made it easy for anti-war liberals to hate their party, the anti-war side made it easy for the Scoop Jackson wing (the anti-commies) to hate their party.

Thankfully the convention is in Chicago again were pro terrorist protestors show up and the leftist mayor has no desire to control his city. 

[chasfh]

10 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Interesting assessment of Biden from a surprising source.

James is not just being a knee jerk lefty by the way.  In fact, he has been critical of Biden before.  I don't think he's a righty either.  He is all over the map.  

What, what? Bill James and Joe Biden spend a lot of time hanging out and watching Nationals games? Since when? How does Joe find the time to do this? And how does something like this not get widely reported? Is this real?

[ewsieg]

49 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Especially with a press corps, annoying as they are, who are not likely to let up on this, even in the face of new news events. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I don't think this is ephemeral; it's going to linger for the rest of this campaign. In a campaign that badly needs a shakeup in dynamic

Well, maybe if the press corps had access to Biden instead of being hid, we'd have a better idea of what's going on with our leader.  MB would be demanding this and calling it an existential crisis and pointing to Reagan's second term if a R was in the office.  

39 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

 I don't really agree with your suggestion that he is in serious mental decline.  He may be, but the inability to talk smoothly would not suggest that.   

Biden was an effective speaker.  If folks want to claim he wasn't a good public speaker, fine, but he was effective.  He's not effective anymore.  I'm not an effective speaker, so when I'm 80 if I'm not an effective speaker than either, you're right it wouldn't be evidence of mental decline.  For Biden it's some evidence suggesting it, not proving it, but suggesting it.  My biggest issue is his response time.  I saw that with my Grandpa and it directly correlated with dementia.  Still, alone doesn't mean anything, but we're starting to add things up.  Plus, think back to the Wall Street Journal "hit piece" which had not only democratic but WH sources, maybe it wasn't so much of a hit piece in hindsight.

31 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Biden is not quick with the tongue anymore. His speech is slow and lacks energy, however, he still accurately recalled facts and thoughtfully answered the moderators questions. 

Even by CNN standards Trump only out lied Biden 3 to 1 in the debate.  Again, it shows Biden is better, but maybe if you want Biden to win don't focus on health or lying where Biden would fail miserably against most.

[mtutiger]

9 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Honest hypothetical question: if Biden were to have to pull out, should Kamala Harris be the nominee because she clearly is the best candidate who can beat Trump? Or should she be the nominee because she’s the vice president now so she’s next in line and people have to be fair and wait their turn?

I can’t say I know for a fact that anyone is better than Kamala on beating Trump, because it is all a great unknown.

In a vacuum, probably not. In reality, where everything from campaign finance to base maintenance is a consideration, she probably is IMO.

I have a real issue with people arguing, correctly or otherwise, about Biden's delusions here who then pump out their own delusions, and who are most of the time uninterested in dealing with any of the cons that would likely accompany those delusions

[Motown Bombers]

6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

What, what? Bill James and Joe Biden spend a lot of time hanging out and watching Nationals games? Since when? How does Joe find the time to do this? And how does something like this not get widely reported? Is this real?

Biden is apparently a Tigers fan. 

[Tiger337]

17 minutes ago, chasfh said:

What, what? Bill James and Joe Biden spend a lot of time hanging out and watching Nationals games? Since when? How does Joe find the time to do this? And how does something like this not get widely reported? Is this real?

Yeah, it is pretty odd.  I can believe he's sat with him during a game, but "spends a lot of time" with him doesn't sound right.  I wonder if he also golfs with Trump.  That might be more believable because Trump spent half his presidency on the gold course. 

Edited July 1 by Tiger337

[gehringer_2]

5 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

In a vacuum, probably not. In reality, where everything from campaign finance to base maintenance is a consideration, she probably is IMO.

I have a real issue with people arguing, correctly or otherwise, about Biden's delusions here who then pump out their own delusions, and who are most of the time uninterested in dealing with any of the cons that would likely accompany those delusions

Yup. Strip away all the breathless anxiety and hidden agenda's, here is the reality: If Biden withdraws, I simply do not see Harris emerging with the nomination at the convention, and if she doesn't, and Black America says to itself  - "this system is always going to shaft us no matter which side" and stays home, the dems cannot win anyway.

On the other hand, if Harris were to be the convention's choice, then it's a pointless exercise because she is already next in line if Biden is incapacitated - all it does is create likely convention chaos for people for all angles to get their panties in a bunch over.