gehringer_2 Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 LOL - Where did this guy come from? I can't believe Vance interrupted the moderator to challenge being fact checked. He sounded like someone trying to do a bad impression of Chevy Chase, who wasn't all that funny in that skit to begin with. Making it obvious that you only agreed to be there if you were allow to lie unchallenged is probably not the best debating strategy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 5 minutes ago, chasfh said: I do think with the surprising civility here, Vance helped himself tonight, if not helped Trump. He might be angling for 2028. He’ll lose the red hats if he does. That was probably goal number one: improve his favorables... they are historically bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 4 minutes ago, chasfh said: I do think with the surprising civility here, Vance helped himself tonight, if not helped Trump. He might be angling for 2028. He’ll lose the red hats if he does. I agree. Bar was low. He didn’t hurt himself. Walz has nowhere to go but down so he couldn’t help himself and JD didn’t really hurt himself all that much. The only potential sound bite from this evening is about Mike Pence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Yeah, I mentioned it in my post above, but there could be a bit of "Fetterman/Oz" in what just took place there.... the pundits ran after one thing (Fetterman's health / stroke concerns) when the moment everybody remembered (Oz' answer on abortion) was the thing that mattered the most. Edited October 2 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: A couple of things: JD's a trained lawyer, the guy has "debate team leader" written all over him, Walz has a different background. On that front, it's just a mismatch altogether.... so when you get into that situation, do you play his game, or do you have to take a different tack and play to your strengths? I don't know if it worked or not, but the overall point is that you aren't going to "outlawyer" a Yale law grad if you have Walz' background and demeanor. You have to do something else.... there was a bit of rope-a-dope in the strategy, and sort of falling back on the policy specifics that are more popular within his ticket's agenda. My guess is it all did not harm. The second point is that while JD, as a forensic debater, looked the part well tonight, a lot of what he was asked to defend (ie. abortion, healthcare, J6) is *really* difficult stuff to defend. You can be a world class debater, but when given the task of defending Trump's position on abortion of his inability to accept election results, come up short. And I'd argue he did in a number of these exchanges, particularly on abortion and J6. Edited October 2 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 (edited) Yep... Nights like these really reinforce how out of touch pundits can be lol Edited October 2 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 Vance comes across as the guy who tries to be the smartest one in the room. Also the guy you watch at the bar to see if he tries to put something in the woman he trying to impress drink. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 Vance is the middle manager type who doesn't know what he's doing but can sure talk like he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 This is a really interesting way of looking at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted October 2 Author Share Posted October 2 I thought JV Dance was a pretty good debater, and Coach Walz wasnt as good. However I read somewhere, maybe here, a take that Walz's best 3 answers were better than Vances best 3 answers and i agree with that. Vances j6 turdpile should be disqualifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 Vance presented much better than Walz. He was more smooth and you never got the sense he was going to break character. In presentation alone, Walz didn't have some good looks during a Vance answer from scribbling down notes to just the look he'd give Vance when Vance was speaking. Walz was trying to 'old school' debate Vance too, you know, stupid things like giving data to support an answer. Vance was really good at not answering the question, while at the same time not obviously looking like he was deflecting the question. The abortion answer for one, he kept saying 'we need to build trust again' or something like that as he sounded compassionate and even approving of abortions, yet he wouldn't just answer the question which should give everyone the answer they need. I will say, as a person that has had their boss put them in a no win situation, he handled that quite skillfully.... I just hope those independents and right leaning folks saw through it. The CBS fact checking.....horrible. I really feel that may have 'won' the debate for Vance. While I was not agreeing with anything Vance was saying and some of it was factually wrong, they specifically said they would give the other candidates the opportunity to fact check each other, yet would specifically call out Vance if Walz didn't respond to a specific issue they had. The whole point of Walz was to appeal and maybe even carve out some votes in those rural areas. My concern is those folks which likely already lean right but just don't want to vote for Trump saw it as the media taking sides again and may not have been as receptive to Walz' answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 Ewsieg makes some good points, but on the issue polling, Vance got clobbered on abortion per CBS. Receptive to the idea he did what he could there given how bad the position the GOP finds themselves in, but I doubt it worked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 4 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Ewsieg makes some good points, but on the issue polling, Vance got clobbered on abortion per CBS. Receptive to the idea he did what he could there given how bad the position the GOP finds themselves in, but I doubt it worked Glad to see that. The immigration numbers are interesting as well, Walz did a pretty good job to drive home the bill that Trump told everyone not to back...after they initially backed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 9 hours ago, mtutiger said: The second point is that while JD, as a forensic debater, looked the part well tonight, a lot of what he was asked to defend (ie. abortion, healthcare, J6) is *really* difficult stuff to defend. You can be a world class debater, but when given the task of defending Trump's position on abortion of his inability to accept election results, come up short. And I'd argue he did in a number of these exchanges, particularly on abortion and J6. Which is why he didn’t really defend it, talking around the question ant hand and/or attacking Biden-Harris on some ancillary or unrelated point. And, of course, there’s the outright lying (“You can make a really good argument that Trump salvaged Obamacare!”). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 52 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Ewsieg makes some good points, but on the issue polling, Vance got clobbered on abortion per CBS. Receptive to the idea he did what he could there given how bad the position the GOP finds themselves in, but I doubt it worked 52-48 is not much of an edge, but 62-38 most decidedly is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 (edited) 1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said: I wish this point were more of a winner among undecideds and fence-sitters and flip-floppers, but apparently it’s not. Edited October 2 by chasfh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 58 minutes ago, ewsieg said: Glad to see that. The immigration numbers are interesting as well, Walz did a pretty good job to drive home the bill that Trump told everyone not to back...after they initially backed it. How someone views the debate here turns on how much you think the average viewer cares about style over substance. And especially in this era, it's easy to think voters aren't savvy or cannot see through BS.... particularly those in the middle. I don't think it was all bad for JD, I think he may have even done a little bit to help the ticket (not the least of which maybe helping his favorables a bit), I'm just not surprised that it looks like more of a draw among the overall pool of voters than what the experts thought it would be in real time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 10 hours ago, Motown Bombers said: I don't believe there are undecided voters. They just want attention. There are undecided voters. I know some of them. They aren't looking for attention. They just don't care enough about politics to have any opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 Even pitchbot can’t top this stuff anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongbit Posted October 2 Share Posted October 2 10 hours ago, Motown Bombers said: I don't believe there are undecided voters. They just want attention. I don’t think there are many that are still deciding between Trump and Harris. I do think there are many 3rd party folks deciding whether to vote Green or Libertarian or vote for Harris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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