2024 Presidential Election thread

[Tiger337]

9 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

I want to pull this out because it I think it bears on an important point. I believe one of the reasons that some on the left have invested to much in the mindset of wokeness and micro-aggression is because it's a neat explanation for why the legal successes of the 60's, which at the time were thought to be the solutions, turned out not to be - at least not a complete enough solution. So the whole micro-aggression/lingusitic/semitoic paradigm arises as an explanation of why we are where we are despite the civil-rights legal reforms.

But I think there is a much more straightforward reason that the explicit legal reforms of the 60's failed to effect a complete social solution, and yes it was because they failed to address institutional racism, but not because that institutional racism resides in the language of micro-aggression or unsurfaced personal racial hostility in most of white middle class America. but because it resides in the basic fiber of democracy in a geographically segregated society. You don't need lack of wokenes to explain that resource decisions in a democracy go to the majority, and when the majority (whites) live in districts geographically segregated from where the minority lives, then the places where minorities live get starved for public resources needed to help build social capital in minority society, and thus  they can never catch up economically.

That is the core of America's problem, not lack of wokeness. But that is a much more terrible and subtle problem to face because it explodes the myth of our democratic perfection. We have to face that to solve that problem the nature and structure of the Union is going to need some corrective surgery, and that will be a very big lift for our society. The only other alternative is for Whites and Blacks and rich and poor to stop trying to live apart from one another so the benefits of a geographically based representative politics get shared more fairly. Either way, not easy stuff.

Much easier to explain away the failures of liberalism's great hour of triumph in the 60's by holding that we are just being too mean to each other.

That said, there is a fight over basic wokeness that is still needed for America to begin to see the real problem but that fight needs to be redirected. Whites do need to understand that even if they don't really hold Blacks back because of conscious social micro hostility, they do hold them back simply by the way they vote ("innocently" enough I might add)  in their own interests. The American system of government is a stacked deck.

This is a great post.  

[pfife]

3 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

They can cross the river into Canada. It would be easier, quicker and safer but hey an assanine idea is doing something. Progressive love their symbolic gestures. 

Or they could have the choice to do either.  Anti-wokes sure do love limiting choice of women.  

Edited June 30, 2022 by pfife

[Motown Bombers]

In all my time in northern Michigan, I have only seen DNR in national forests. The only thing I have seen resembling the feds was a border patrol unit in Sault Sainte Marie. 

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, pfife said:

Or they could do have the choice to do either.  Anti-wokes sure do love limiting choice of women.  

Democrats could be pushing more to sign the ballot petition to codify Roe into the state constitution. Elizabeth Warren has done that as well. I have signed the petition and have volunteered to collect signatures in Sterling Heights on Saturday. You should stop by and sign if you haven't. Codifying it in the state constitution is much better that having pop up tents in the forest. Until then, abortion isn't illegal in Michigan yet and the poorest of Michigan's residents have access to it just across the river. 

[chasfh]

11 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

I'm a fan of her policies but my patience with her has run out. She was ranked as one of the least productive representatives.

So are they saying she’s the shortest midget in the circus?

[pfife]

2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Democrats could be pushing more to sign the ballot petition to codify Roe into the state constitution. Elizabeth Warren has done that as well. I have signed the petition and have volunteered to collect signatures in Sterling Heights on Saturday. You should stop by and sign if you haven't. Codifying it in the state constitution is much better that having pop up tents in the forest. Until then, abortion isn't illegal in Michigan yet and the poorest of Michigan's residents have access to it just across the river. 

Signed it 2 weeks ago

I support an all of the above approach.  But that's because I'm not anti-woke and I do not support limiting women's choices.  I also don't have anti-woke entitlement, such as being entitled to my own Liz Warren quotes. 

Edited June 30, 2022 by pfife

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

It's really the typical Democratic voter. They never cared about the Supreme Court. The Republicans held a Supreme Court seat hostage for nearly a year and Democrats still couldn't be bothered to vote. 

Three and a half million more people voted for the Democrat than the Republican that year.

[Motown Bombers]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

So are they saying she’s the shortest midget in the circus?

I think it's little person now. You are officially canceled. 

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

Do children that were helicopter parented grow up expecting to be helicopter governed?

Yes, of course. We’ve been talking for a couple of decades about how helicopter parenting was going to maladjust this generation. The debate was whether it would cause them to mass rebel against authority as in the sixties, or mold them exactly in that image. We’re getting our answer in real time, because instead of striking out on their own and putting in the work to make their circumstances better, they’re waiting for parental saviors to fix everything for them. That’s probably what the whole superhero graphic novel/movie craze is all about.

[Motown Bombers]

Now that Biden said he supports carving out the filibuster, I'm sure Manchin and Sinema will get right on it. Progressives can rejoice. Biden is pure again. If only Biden were from Michigan, he would be Pure Michigan. 

[gehringer_2]

30 minutes ago, pfife said:

I'll be in the UP in a few days.   I'll try to remember to check who's managing at the lodges for the places up around Pictured Rocks.    I do recall from prior trips to Sleeping Bear and Munising that they wore similar looking uniforms to the guys working the Washington Monument but that doesn't mean much.

yeah, the unis are all park service style. But federal park Police (who are also called 'Rangers' just like the folks that are not police, of course)  are normally armed with a typical cop's rig.

Edited June 30, 2022 by gehringer_2

[pfife]

I don't think Sinema or Manchin are going to carve the filibuster. 

[Motown Bombers]

14 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Three and a half million more people voted for the Democrat than the Republican that year.

In Michigan, for example, Trump only won by 10,000 votes. Detroit had a voter turnout under 50%. Clinton won Detroit with 98% of the vote. Hundreds of thousands of votes were left on the table. Running up the score in California doesn't do any good. Unfortunately that is the system we have. 

[pfife]

so I guess that means the question is, how do we get them to vote?

It seems like one very prevalent option here is to insult them and blame them for everything.   

I don't think that's a very good option personally

[Motown Bombers]

Who insulted them? 

I'll be woke now. They are to blame. Detroit had the lowest turnout in the state. It's by far the largest voting district in the state and the most Democratic. They didn't vote in the primary either. 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Motown Bombers

[gehringer_2]

1 minute ago, pfife said:

so I guess that means the question is, how do we get them to vote?

It seems like one very prevalent option here is to insult them and blame them for everything.   

I don't think that's a very good option personally

Not easy for sure. I would think the key is the level of political 'hope'. When generations of people don't see change, they give up politically and then you get a self re-enforcing feedback loop. Obama instilled that kind of hope and got that kind of turnout but that was because of who he was. The typical congressional election doesn't. But in general, campaigning on the kind of actions that would give hope to minorities makes is pretty hard to get the votes of majority because they don't need what's on offer and only see the bill. If anyone had figured out how to square that circle we probably wouldn't be where we are.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

In Michigan, for example, Trump only won by 10,000 votes. Detroit had a voter turnout under 50%. Clinton won Detroit with 98% of the vote. Hundreds of thousands of votes were left on the table. Running up the score in California doesn't do any good. Unfortunately that is the system we have. 

Hillary got over three more million votes than Trump. If Trump was handed the White House as a result, the problem isn't the whole of Democratic voters voting individually. The problem is the system that punishes cities and large states to the benefit of rural areas and small states.

[Motown Bombers]

5 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Hillary got over three more million votes than Trump. If Trump was handed the White House as a result, the problem isn't the whole of Democratic voters voting individually. The problem is the system that punishes cities and large states to the benefit of rural areas and small states.

The Democrats are playing at a disadvantage but they still had an opportunity to win. Michigan was there for the taking and Detroiters didn't vote. I'm guessing if I look into Pennsylvania and Wisconsin it will be a similar story. 

[chasfh]

11 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

The Democrats are playing at a disadvantage but they still had an opportunity to win. Michigan was there for the taking and Detroiters didn't vote. I'm guessing if I look into Pennsylvania and Wisconsin it will be a similar story. 

We weren't voting for the President of Detroit, or the President of Pennsylvania, or the President of Wisconsin. We were voting for the President of the United States, and more than three million more voters across the United States voted for Hillary than for Trump.

Democratic voters did their job. They were failed by a system constitutionally-rigged to help wealthy slaveholders a quarter millennium ago.

Edited June 30, 2022 by chasfh

[Motown Bombers]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

We weren't voting for the President of Detroit, or the President of Pennsylvania, or the President of Wisconsin. We were voting for the President of the United States, and more than three million more voters across the United States voted for Hillary than for Trump.

Democratic voters did their job. They were failed by a system constitutionally-rigged to help wealthy slaveholders a quarter millennium ago.

I understand that, but it's what we are faced with currently and more than 49% of Detroiters are going to have to vote unless you have a better idea. 

[oblong]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Hillary got over three more million votes than Trump. If Trump was handed the White House as a result, the problem isn't the whole of Democratic voters voting individually. The problem is the system that punishes cities and large states to the benefit of rural areas and small states.

That's a problem that will never ever be fixed despite who much we hate it.

So you have to play the game as it's laid out, not how you wish it were.

 

[Tiger337]

3 hours ago, chasfh said:

Yes, of course. We’ve been talking for a couple of decades about how helicopter parenting was going to maladjust this generation. The debate was whether it would cause them to mass rebel against authority as in the sixties, or mold them exactly in that image. We’re getting our answer in real time, because instead of striking out on their own and putting in the work to make their circumstances better, they’re waiting for parental saviors to fix everything for them. That’s probably what the whole superhero graphic novel/movie craze is all about.

You know you're getting old when you start talking about how weak the next generation is!

[CMRivdogs]

This tweet held up well..

Unfortunately 

[CMRivdogs]

 

[Motown Bombers]

Can the progressives get Norway to interfere with our elections to spread universal healthcare?