Tiger337 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Oh a classic. You don’t even know a damn thing about Dean Phillips other than he’s not as old as Biden. That’s the type of people voting today. I know what I have read about him and I have heard him speak, same as any other new candidate. You automatically hate anybody who is not the establishment candidate and scold anyone who isn't with the establishment program. That has been your position ever since I started posting in this forum. Yes, I am they type of person who votes today and also in past electons. I have chosen not to spend a lot of my life worrying about politics because I don't have patience with all the bull****. I try to have a general idea of what's going on which is about the best you'll get from the majority of the population. It's all about money and power, but the things Democrats pretend to care about are more in line with my thinking than what Republicans pretend to care about, so I vote Democrat. Also, it takes very little knowledge or intelligence to know that Trump is a turd and a fraud and unfit for any leadership role. Edited February 25 by Tiger337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 4 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I know what I have read about him and I have heard him speak, same as any other new candidate. You automatically hate anybody who is not the establishment candidate and scold anyone who isn't with the establishment program. That has been your position ever since I started posting in this forum. Yes, I am they type of person who votes today and also in past electons. I have chosen not to spend a lot of my life worrying about politics because I don't have patience with all the bull****. I try to have a general idea of what's going on which is about the best you'll get from the majority of the population. It's all about money and power, but the things Democrats pretend to care about are more in line with my thinking than what Republicans pretend to care about, so I vote Democrat. I literally voted for Bernie Sanders in 2016 and supported him and was a self described socialist. Get out of here with this establishment. Dean Phillips is a moderate and one of the wealthiest people in congress. He’s a former ceo. It doesn’t get more establishment than that. The problem is now he’s hiring republican campaign managers, funded by right wing groups, openly said he would consider joining the Republican ticket, has said he would consider picking right wingers like Musk and Ackman for a cabinet position, dropped DEI because his right wing donor wanted him to, and is just a three time back bencher with no notable legislative accomplishment. I don’t have patience for playing games with such high stakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Dean Phillips accepted donations from Harlan Crow who is a wealthy Republican donor and personal friend of Clarence Thomas who gave Thomas luxury vacations among other things but sure he’s not establishment and is younger than Biden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Looking like another polling miss in SC.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 28 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Looking like another polling miss in SC.... Two recent polls - Trafalgar (Trump + 21) and Hill/Emerson (Trump +22) were pretty close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 2 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: Two recent polls - Trafalgar (Trump + 21) and Hill/Emerson (Trump +22) were pretty close. Average of polls was higher than those, will probably end around 19. Nobody will talk about it because Trump gets treated like he has zero flaws and is a perfect candidate, but he's putting up a really ****ty performance in the Charleston area tonight for a pseudo-incumbent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 2 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Average of polls was higher than those, will probably end around 19. Nobody will talk about it because Trump gets treated like he has zero flaws and is a perfect candidate, but he's putting up a really ****ty performance in the Charleston area tonight for a pseudo-incumbent Haley did well in the Charleston area and in the Columbia area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 The time for a protest vote is RIGHT NOW, MB... Just like the pro-Palestinian Michiganders who want to vote "Uncommitted"... In the PRIMARY... As long as Biden gets all the votes in November, WHEN IT MATTERS... Is the ONLY thing that matters to me. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 4 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Average of polls was higher than those, will probably end around 19. Nobody will talk about it because Trump gets treated like he has zero flaws and is a perfect candidate, but he's putting up a really ****ty performance in the Charleston area tonight for a pseudo-incumbent That's because the media needs him to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said: I literally voted for Bernie Sanders in 2016 and supported him and ... Literally... The Pot calling the Kettle... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Pretty consistent pattern... there was a mild miss here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 5 minutes ago, mtutiger said: ... Nobody will talk about it because Trump gets treated like he has zero flaws and is a perfect candidate, but he's putting up a really ****ty performance in the Charleston area tonight for a pseudo-incumbent But more critically... I believe a large proportion of Haley's voters will vote for Biden in November. Probably a lot of split tickets: Biden and whoever they like for locals and Senate & Reps... Trump has become entirely too toxic. Especially for moderate Republicans, Republican women (a large % who I'd have no idea what that % actually is...), and center-to-right leaning Indies. South Carolina results reinforce this with me in a HUGE way. I mean... unless Haley pulls out the miracle and actually takes the nomination away from Trump. Ya never know if Trump will drown in all his legal troubles. It doesn't look likely today... but there is still (a little) time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 3 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Pretty consistent pattern... there was a mild miss here. Well that's a consistent 7 to 8 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 5 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Literally... The Pot calling the Kettle... Outside of voting for Kwame Kilpatrick, it’s was the worst voting decision I ever made and wish I voted for Hilary in the primary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 10 minutes ago, 1776 said: Haley did well in the Charleston area and in the Columbia area. She could still win delegates tonight on account of the Charleston area. Which seems kind of improbable considering. It doesn't change the primary landscape, but Trump campaign doesn't project much strength IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said: I liken this to Reagan in '84. He was already showing strong signs of Alzheimer's and you could see Nancy and the RNC doing everything they could do to protect/ hide his condition. And he deteriorated even further over the next 4 years of his presidency. And I hated LOTS of his policies. Moral Majority? I'm an Atheist. Crap all over the environment? No. Trickle down economics that benefits the top 1% and ****s the middle class and lower? Pure garbage. But he was the president we needed, both in 1980 AND in 1984. Nothing else mattered. I look at Biden in exactly the same vein... He is no different in 2024 than in 2020... At least with respect to: He is the president we need. Doesn't matter if his age is showing. Doesn't matter if he is slipping some. Doesn't matter if the Dems should be looking at younger/ more invigorating presidential candidates. Doesn't matter if he is a Centrist, not a Progressive. Doesn't matter that he's pissed off the pro-Palestinian Progressives. Or any Progressive. (Funny thing being that he's passed more Progressive Legislature or Future-of-America Legislation than anyone since LBJ...). The only thing that matters is he's the guy we need in 2024. Which I think you've also already stated as such... come November: he's the only choice. Just my thoughts on the matter... Yes, Biden is the only choice in November. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 11 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: The time for a protest vote is RIGHT NOW, MB... Just like the pro-Palestinian Michiganders who want to vote "Uncommitted"... In the PRIMARY... As long as Biden gets all the votes in November, WHEN IT MATTERS... Is the ONLY thing that matters to me. Just my 2 cents. It never happens that way. We saw it in 2016. All it does is weaken Biden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 It's going to happen exactly in that way. This is not 2016. Everyone knows exactly who Trump is by now. Come November, everyone is voting for Biden except hardcore MAGA holdouts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said: It never happens that way. We saw it in 2016. All it does is weaken Biden. It only weakens Biden if the primary protest voters sit out the general. I will definitely be voting for Biden in November. I voted for Sanders in the primary in 2016 and Clinton in the general. Neither vote was a mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: It only weakens Biden if the primary protest voters sit out the general. I will definitely be voting for Biden in November. I voted for Sanders in the primary in 2016 and Clinton in the general. Neither vote was a mistake. In an open primary (Bernie/Hillary) people should vote for who they like - that's the whole idea. But the obligation for those who claim to be in the party is to actually support it after one candidate wins. When that doesn't happen (the Teddy challenge in 1980, Bernie Bros staying home in 2016), then you lose elections you might have won. That said, it's not an open primary when the president is an incumbent - it's a windmill tilt. A popularly elected president has not lost his party's nomination (if he ran for it) since before the civil war. So it goes back to my original contention - most candidates that are running a primary campaign against an incumbent president are either far too full of themselves (Teddy K) or just stalking horses for people behind the scenes more interested in mischief than anything else. Edited February 25 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 This also works for Republicans with people protesting voting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: In an open primary (Bernie/Hillary) people should vote for who they like - that's the whole idea. But the obligation for those who claim to be in the party is to actually support it after one candidate wins. When that doesn't happen (the Teddy challenge in 1980, Bernie Bros staying home in 2016), then you lose elections you might have won. That said, it's not an open primary when the president is an incumbent - it's a windmill tilt. A popularly elected president has not lost his party's nomination (if he ran for it) since before the civil war. So it goes back to my original contention - most candidates that are running a primary campaign against an incumbent president are either far too full of themselves (Teddy K) or just stalking horses for people behind the scenes more interested in mischief than anything else. It seems like politics has changed an awful lot in recent years though. The lack of choices could change and it should change. I mean isn't an open primary what Democracy is about? Maybe like you said before things would get more interesting with ranked voting. Edited February 25 by Tiger337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) In 2020 there was Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Pete Buttigieg, Kamala Harris, Corey Booker, Amy Klobuchar, Michael Bloomberg, and Joe Biden as legitimate choices. Where is this lack of choice? When Buttigieg and Klobuchar realized they weren't going to win, they got the hell out right away and got behind Biden. Edited February 25 by Motown Bombers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tiger337 said: I mean isn't an open primary what Democracy is about? But there is a another way to look at it, which is that primaries have a different nature for incumbencies. Your party chose a person as the best candidate, he/she ended up having wide enough appeal to win the office, why do you want to revisit that by running someone against them in a primary? That's basically strategic suicide for a party in the absence of some real issue with the incumbent. For a party to run against it's own incumbent in a primary is basically an intra-party impeachment-you're telling the world your party was too incompetent to get the choice right the 1st time and you, MR. Voter, didn't make a good choice in electing him. A lot of bad subtext there. Running anything other than tokens against incumbent will just never be SOP for a well functioning political party. With Biden you'd have to make a serious case that he was becoming demonstrably incompetent or something, and maybe some people believe that, but all I see is what is normal for a guy that is getting physically frailer but still has his wits about him. There is more risk at his age that he won't finish his term, but there's no guarantee either way. I'm old enough to remember that the youngest president we ever elected didn't finish his term either. In a perfect world it would have been nice if Biden decided early not to run again, but the problem is that there is no good time for a President to announce that without neutering his admin, so it even if there is some inclination (not that I think there was any with Biden) the shear momentum of trying to get things done works hard against that decision ever being implemented. Edited February 25 by gehringer_2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 38 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: But there is a another way to look at it, which is that primaries have a different nature for incumbencies. Your party chose a person as the best candidate, he/she ended up having wide enough appeal to win the office, why do you want to revisit that by running someone against them in a primary? That's basically strategic suicide for a party in the absence of some real issue with the incumbent. For a party to run against it's own incumbent in a primary is basically an intra-party impeachment-you're telling the world your party was too incompetent to get the choice right the 1st time and you, MR. Voter, didn't make a good choice in electing him. A lot of bad subtext there. Running anything other than tokens against incumbent will just never be SOP for a well functioning political party. With Biden you'd have to make a serious case that he was becoming demonstrably incompetent or something, and maybe some people believe that, but all I see is what is normal for a guy that is getting physically frailer but still has his wits about him. There is more risk at his age that he won't finish his term, but there's no guarantee either way. I'm old enough to remember that the youngest president we ever elected didn't finish his term either. In a perfect world it would have been nice if Biden decided early not to run again, but the problem is that there is no good time for a President to announce that without neutering his admin, so it even if there is some inclination (not that I think there was any with Biden) the shear momentum of trying to get things done works hard against that decision ever being implemented. Excellent post! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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