mtutiger Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 (edited) 3 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said: "I hate Candidate X, but it's irresponsible to vote for Candidate Y, because if he dies we might get Candidate Z! So Candidate Y should step aside so I can vote for Candidate Z instead." "Undecided voters are the biggest idiots on the planet." - Brian Griffin Counterpoint: if swing voters actually do think he should step aside and see him refusing to, as he is doing now, doesn't it reinforce the idea of a elderly parent refusing to turn the car keys over? And what happens if he theoretically is reelected, has a stroke, and still refuses to give up the car keys? Trump as a candidate promises less stability and majorities still hate him. But if perceptions of Biden and his age are *that* baked in, I can see how some voters might see him as just as unstable or more unstable choice than Trump. I don't agree with it myself, I would vote for a jar of pickles before I would vote for Trump... but I believe that's what we are reckoning with right now Edited July 20 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganCardinal Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 3 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Counterpoint: if swing voters actually do think he should step aside and see him refusing to, as he is doing now, doesn't it reinforce the idea of a elderly parent refusing to turn the car keys over? And what happens if he theoretically is reelected, has a stroke, and still refuses to give up the car keys? Trump as a candidate promises less stability and majorities still hate him. But if perceptions of Biden and his age are *that* baked in, I can see how some voters might see him as just as unstable or more unstable choice than Trump. I don't agree with it myself, I would vote for a jar of pickles before I would vote for Trump... but I believe that's what we are reckoning with right now The 25th Amendment exists for a reason. I have no doubt a Democratic Cabinet would exercise it if it was needed (e.g., a stroke and won't give up control), unlike the sycophants DJT surrounds himself with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 (edited) 11 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said: The 25th Amendment exists for a reason. I have no doubt a Democratic Cabinet would exercise it if it was needed (e.g., a stroke and won't give up control), unlike the sycophants DJT surrounds himself with. The 25th is the remedy for sure, but that solution evokes a lack of stability. I think there is legit concern from someabout voting for someone who cannot make it thru the term. Even if the remedy exists. Edited July 20 by mtutiger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 3 hours ago, Tigeraholic1 said: Also the Bill of Rights in the Bible? Thats a first for me. He probably added/changed verbage to claim how your president is next to God or some hog wash. I know you said you're a big Hawley fan so you like what he says, but I don't know where "love of country" shows up anywhere in Jesus's teaching, outside of you should pay the taxes you owe to Rome, which as any taxpayer knows is nothing like love of country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 2 hours ago, Sports_Freak said: I have a problem with the democrat "leaders" who are trying to push Biden out of the race. They're attempting to take away millions of voters votes who voted for Joe in the primary. And they're handing this election to...Donald Trump. Are they corrupt? Or just stupid? I don't think it's millions of voters' votes. I think it's more like 3,896 delegates' votes. And they are not even votes yet—they are pledges to vote at the convention in August. So, technically speaking, no votes are being taken away if Biden is replaced before the convention. But it is still a **** move to some. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 2 minutes ago, chasfh said: I don't think it's millions of voters' votes. I think it's more like 3,896 delegates' votes. And they are not even votes yet—they are pledges to vote at the convention in August. So, technically speaking, no votes are being taken away if Biden is replaced before the convention. But it is still a **** move to some. We even bother having a primary vote then? They asked people who they wanted as the nominee, we voted for Biden and they're gonna tell us...too bad? I don't think so. They're going to get Trump and his MAGA idiots elected. I'm voting for democratic nominee but I'm afraid of what other Americans will/won't do. Not show up to vote? Very possibly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 1 hour ago, Sports_Freak said: ... One bad debate and they jump ship? ... I don't believe that's the problem. I DO believe that you already KNOW that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 Just now, 1984Echoes said: I don't believe that's the problem. I DO believe that you already KNOW that. We all knew Joe is old and has a stutter. But he gets stuff done and works for all Americans. He also has a great administration. Not a corrupt one like Trump had. Most of Trump's ended up in prison. I'm really not sure this country could survive another Trump term. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 (edited) 58 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Counterpoint: if swing voters actually do think he should step aside and see him refusing to, as he is doing now, doesn't it reinforce the idea of a elderly parent refusing to turn the car keys over? And what happens if he theoretically is reelected, has a stroke, and still refuses to give up the car keys? Trump as a candidate promises less stability and majorities still hate him. But if perceptions of Biden and his age are *that* baked in, I can see how some voters might see him as just as unstable or more unstable choice than Trump. I don't agree with it myself, I would vote for a jar of pickles before I would vote for Trump... but I believe that's what we are reckoning with right now I think the only way it works is Biden engineers Harris as the nominee, or pledges to resign for Harris after the election, they continue to campaign together. Harris pledges continuity to all the substantive priorities of the Biden admin. There has to be a solid belief there will be continuity. Harris doesn't have time or credibility to campaign on a new program. Obviously some cabinet officers always want to go do other things but you need public commitments from as many as possible to stay on for at least the 1st year. Edited July 20 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 Dude... I'm voting STRAIGHT DEM ticket... NO MATTER WHAT. From top to bottom. The Republican Party no longer exists. It's the MAGA Party of Fascism and Violence and Lies and Replace the Constitution with a Dictatorship. No thank you. They no longer exist to me. I wouldn't vote a Republican for local dog catcher or Morristown, NJ Manure Manager. Whoever is at the top of the Dem ticket, I'm voting for. I love Joe Biden. If it's him, that's who I'm voting for. And I've said this a 1,000 times: if it's Joe Biden's Corpse with a broomstick up his back, that's who I'm voting for. If it's Kamala, that's who I'm voting for. If the donors stage a coup and get someone else atop the ticket, that's who I'm voting for. If it's a Massive Monstrous Pile of Manure that the Morristown Manure Manager left in my parking space, if that's what is atop of the Dem ticket... that's who (what) I'm voting for. But this is out of my hands.. I don't have a dog in this dog-n-pony show. I just don't. So.. I don't care. At all. Not out of malice... the only malice I hold is for Donald MF'ing Lying Scumbag POS Fascist ****wad Trump. Whoever is on the Dem ticket, that's who I'm voting for. I don't care who it is. I'm not going to argue anything here. I see what some people's concerns are about Biden... I get it. But I'm not arguing for anything. I'm just going to vote straight ticket Dem from top-to-bottom come November. Whomsoever that may be. That is all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 25 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: We even bother having a primary vote then? They asked people who they wanted as the nominee, we voted for Biden and they're gonna tell us...too bad? I don't think so. They're going to get Trump and his MAGA idiots elected. I'm voting for democratic nominee but I'm afraid of what other Americans will/won't do. Not show up to vote? Very possibly... The primary vote happened before things changed, obviously. If the Democrats know what they're doing and have their **** together, they will get the delegates on board for whoever the replacement is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 Just now, chasfh said: The primary vote happened before things changed, obviously. If the Democrats know what they're doing and have their **** together, they will get the delegates on board for whoever the replacement is. I didn't start hearing any nominee changes until that horrible debate. People want to use that as their excuse. Joe is old and stutters. Everybody knew that, for years. But now they want to discard him like a used tissue? The nomination goes to Joe as long as he wants it. Just like millions of voters wanted when they voted for him in the primaries. These idiots are going to hand out country over to a corrupt felon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 Just now, chasfh said: The primary vote happened before things changed, obviously. If the Democrats know what they're doing and have their **** together, they will get the delegates on board for whoever the replacement is. and the fact is that for all intents and purposes Biden was running opposed in the primaries so those votes don't really represent a positive choice as much as just an affirmation of party loyalty. Of course the ultimate irony in a situation like this with person who might be failing, is that if they retain the judgement to fully evaluate the decision to step away, they probably don't have to.... There is a bit of the liar's paradox built into such a situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 1 minute ago, Sports_Freak said: I didn't start hearing any nominee changes until that horrible debate. People want to use that as their excuse. Joe is old and stutters. Everybody knew that, for years. But now they want to discard him like a used tissue? The nomination goes to Joe as long as he wants it. Just like millions of voters wanted when they voted for him in the primaries. These idiots are going to hand out country over to a corrupt felon. If you seriously can't see how the debate was a bright dividing line for the Biden campaign, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 10 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Dude... I'm voting STRAIGHT DEM ticket... NO MATTER WHAT. From top to bottom. The Republican Party no longer exists. It's the MAGA Party of Fascism and Violence and Lies and Replace the Constitution with a Dictatorship. No thank you. They no longer exist to me. I wouldn't vote a Republican for local dog catcher or Morristown, NJ Manure Manager. Whoever is at the top of the Dem ticket, I'm voting for. I love Joe Biden. If it's him, that's who I'm voting for. And I've said this a 1,000 times: if it's Joe Biden's Corpse with a broomstick up his back, that's who I'm voting for. If it's Kamala, that's who I'm voting for. If the donors stage a coup and get someone else atop the ticket, that's who I'm voting for. If it's a Massive Monstrous Pile of Manure that the Morristown Manure Manager left in my parking space, if that's what is atop of the Dem ticket... that's who (what) I'm voting for. But this is out of my hands.. I don't have a dog in this dog-n-pony show. I just don't. So.. I don't care. At all. Not out of malice... the only malice I hold is for Donald MF'ing Lying Scumbag POS Fascist ****wad Trump. Whoever is on the Dem ticket, that's who I'm voting for. I don't care who it is. I'm not going to argue anything here. I see what some people's concerns are about Biden... I get it. But I'm not arguing for anything. I'm just going to vote straight ticket Dem from top-to-bottom come November. Whomsoever that may be. That is all. And I agree with you 100%. My big fear is that there's not enough of us that feel this way and the squabbling will allow Trump to steal another election, like he did in 2016. The democrats need to unite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 5 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: And I agree with you 100%. My big fear is that there's not enough of us that feel this way and the squabbling will allow Trump to steal another election, like he did in 2016. The democrats need to unite. That part I don't know about. I don't know how the Dems will unite or how to get them all motivated and united. Trump MUST be defeated. Yes. I'm thinking though: whomever comes out of the DNC on top... EVERYONE will get behind them. Including all the Dem PAC advertisements, donors, base, independents (who do NOT want to see another Trump Corrupted Administration), Never-Trumpers, etc... I think it will all come together. But I just can't promise that (as if I was the guy to make this promise... NOT!!!) Best of luck everyone, in November. May the best (DEMOCRATIC PARTY) Person win. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 8 minutes ago, chasfh said: If you seriously can't see how the debate was a bright dividing line for the Biden campaign, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Oh, I see it. I've also heard the talking heads talk about how bad Obama did in his first debate. Biden has a track record of coming back strong when he's down. Also has a very good 3 1/2 years of getting stuff done as a president. 4 months away from a possible defeat to Donald Trump is no time to change candidates. The entire country should be rallying behind Biden. But there's not even agreement on who should take his place. Harris? Can a woman, a black woman, beat Trump? That scares the living **** outta me, as it should most democrats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 59 minutes ago, chasfh said: I know you said you're a big Hawley fan so you like what he says, but I don't know where "love of country" shows up anywhere in Jesus's teaching, outside of you should pay the taxes you owe to Rome, which as any taxpayer knows is nothing like love of country. I am just a guy from nowhere Indiana but my understanding is. To nurture and take care of your nation. Volunteer at a food bank. Mow an elderly persons yard for them. Be a mentor, things like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 18 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: and the fact is that for all intents and purposes Biden was running opposed in the primaries so those votes don't really represent a positive choice as much as just an affirmation of party loyalty. Of course the ultimate irony in a situation like this with person who might be failing, is that if they retain the judgement to fully evaluate the decision to step away, they probably don't have to.... There is a bit of the liar's paradox built into such a situation. I agree. As an incumbent, he was running unopposed. But that doesn't change the fact that everyone knew he was old as dirt and has a stutter. And I could care less what Stephen King or Geroge Clooney says about him. My peeve is the Democrat leaders who are so quick to dump him with no leading candidates to take his place. Gavin Newsome? Big Gretchen? Bernie? Harris? None of those choices inspire me. And my biggest worry is people staying home, like they did in 2016. Trump should never have won.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 16 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: I am just a guy from nowhere Indiana but my understanding is. To nurture and take care of your nation. Volunteer at a food bank. Mow an elderly persons yard for them. Be a mentor, things like that. I agree the last three are very valuable. I would simply argue these are not exclusively or even primarily Christian values, but broadly human values. Many religious people and atheists embrace these values, and many other religious people and atheists pay them only lip service or active ignore them. Probably similar percentages of each. The one about nurturing and taking care of your nation: it is good to have some people who are dedicated to that, but I don't believe God requires that of everybody, or even of anybody. I believe it's something you do if it happens to interest you, such as being a nurse practitioner or working in advertising or being a baseball researcher. My religious education left me with the idea that God doesn't care about nations, because they are temporal earthly constructs, not eternal divine constructs, and a data point in support of that is there are no longer any nations that were here when Jesus roamed the Earth that are still here today. Nations are almost the very definition of worldliness, which most Christian sects eschew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 This thread is basically talking someone off the ledge every day now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 This is some stuff... Peter Thiel is a creepy mofo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganCardinal Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 1 hour ago, romad1 said: This thread is basically talking someone off the ledge every day now. You should accept the Google Calendar invite if you want a heads up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 4 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: I think the only way it works is Biden engineers Harris as the nominee, or pledges to resign for Harris after the election, they continue to campaign together. Harris pledges continuity to all the substantive priorities of the Biden admin. There has to be a solid belief there will be continuity. Harris doesn't have time or credibility to campaign on a new program. Obviously some cabinet officers always want to go do other things but you need public commitments from as many as possible to stay on for at least the 1st year. 1000 percent, it has to be Harris. No argument here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 Just from my day job I can attest that there is no shortage of concrete being poured in this country right now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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