2024 Presidential Election thread

[mtutiger]

4 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

We have public schools for the public. 

So, we suck tax money out of the public school system, in some cases even sending it outside of the community that the student resides in... but don't worry, if you aren't lucky enough to get a voucher, "we have public schools for the public"

Incredible stuff.

Edited Tuesday at 07:09 PM by mtutiger

[Tigeraholic1]

Just now, CMRivdogs said:

Unless it comes to things you don't like

Then you vote to change. 

[CMRivdogs]

3 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

State rights are pretty cool.

Didn't we fight a war over that over 100 years ago. Or at least that's what the losing side's argument is

[CMRivdogs]

8 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

State rights are pretty cool.

That didn't exactly answer my question. Once again define public in your world as it pertains to school attendence

[Tigeraholic1]

1 minute ago, mtutiger said:

So, we suck tax money out of the public school system, in some cases even sending it outside of the community that the student resides in... but don't worry, if you aren't lucky enough to get a voucher, "we have public schools for the public"

Incredible stuff.

In Indiana there is no limit on vouchers given out. You apply and your school excepts them the state pays direct to school. They all partner with the state to provide IEP requirments for anyone who qualifies. Pretty solid program. 

[CMRivdogs]

7 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

So, we suck tax money out of the public school system, in some cases even sending it outside of the community that the student resides in... but don't worry, if you aren't lucky enough to get a voucher, "we have public schools for the public"

Incredible stuff.

"Let the scum eat cake"

[Tigeraholic1]

2 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

"Let the scum eat cake"

DOE created in 1980 U.S. was ranked top 3 education system in the world. I wonder what we rank now? I will take my answer off the air.

[CMRivdogs]

Just now, Tigeraholic1 said:

DOE created in 1980 U.S. was ranked top 3 education system in the world. I wonder what we rank now? I will take my answer off the air.

Google is your friend. I'm still looking for your definition of public.

 

[mtutiger]

Just now, Tigeraholic1 said:

In Indiana there is no limit on vouchers given out. You apply and your school excepts them the state pays direct to school. They all partner with the state to provide IEP requirments for anyone who qualifies. Pretty solid program. 

If you live in a rural corner of the state that doesn't have easy access to a charter school, you are pretty much at a disadvantage to someone who lives in suburban Indianapolis or Fort Wayne or wherever because you are unlikely to avail yourself of a voucher if you live a significant distance from a charter school. Or if you are Catholic and live in a town that is predominantly Lutheran (like I was growing up)

The parents of kids that would avail themselves of a voucher in that situation would also take tax dollars out of their community, which rural communities rely heavily on as employers, which in turn harms everyone else who isn't so lucky as to have that opportunity readily available to them.

I get why vouchers are appealing and do not doubt that the can be helpful to those who are able to avail themselves of them. But I'm just not going to pretend that they are equally beneficial to everyone, because they simply aren't.

[oblong]

Private schools should pull themselves up by thier bootstraps and get their money the real american way, by hard work, not by mooching off the public and accepting handouts from the government.  Have some bake sales and make the kids go door to door begging for money. Maybe sell some T shirts or Entertainment Books for 50% off a pizza when you buy another pizza at menu price.

 

 

[CMRivdogs]

2 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

DOE created in 1980 U.S. was ranked top 3 education system in the world. I wonder what we rank now? I will take my answer off the air.

To answer your question

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/24/most-americans-think-us-k-12-stem-education-isnt-above-average-but-test-results-paint-a-mixed-picture/#:~:text=By Brian Kennedy,pupils in these other countries.

Quote

U.S. students ranked 28th out of 37 OECD member countries in math.Among OECD countries, Japanese students had the highest math scores and Colombian students scored lowest. The U.S. ranking was similar in 2018, the last time the test was administered. The U.S. average score for math fell by 13 percentage points between 2018 and 2022, but the U.S. was far from alone in experiencing a decline in scores. In fact, 25 of the 37 OECD countries saw at least a 10-point drop in average math scores from 2018 to 2022.

In science, the U.S. ranked 12th out of 37 OECD countries. Japanese students ranked highest and Mexican students ranked lowest. The U.S average science score was virtually unchanged since 2018. Across OECD countries, far fewer countries experienced a large decline in science scores than in math scores. Seven OECD countries saw their mean science scores decline by 10 points or more.

PISA is taken by 15-year-old students about every three years. Students in 37 OECD countries took the 2022 PISA.

 

 

[1776]

8 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

Define public in your world. Full transparency, my grandson goes to a parochial school. His parents are fine with paying tuition (we really don't discuss it). It's their choice, I'm fine with it.

I also don't live in their community

Our son went to a parochial school all twelve years. He met his wife there. No regrets at all. 

[Tigeraholic1]

2 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

If you live in a rural corner of the state that doesn't have easy access to a charter school, you are pretty much at a disadvantage to someone who lives in suburban Indianapolis or Fort Wayne or wherever because you are unlikely to avail yourself of a voucher if you live a significant distance from a charter school. Or if you are Catholic and live in a town that is predominantly Lutheran (like I was growing up)

The parents of kids that would avail themselves of a voucher in that situation would also take tax dollars out of their community, which rural communities rely heavily on as employers, which in turn harms everyone else who isn't so lucky as to have that opportunity readily available to them.

I get why vouchers are appealing and do not doubt that the can be helpful to those who are able to avail themselves of them. But I'm just not going to pretend that they are equally beneficial to everyone, because they simply aren't.

You won't be moving to Indiana, gotchya.

[CMRivdogs]

Just now, 1776 said:

Our son went to a parochial school all twelve years. He met his wife there. No regrets at all. 

I have no problems with the school. My GS is doing quite well and is the star of the school's Quiz Team (he's in 7th grade). From the way my son talks they are paying full tuition.

[mtutiger]

Just now, Tigeraholic1 said:

You won't be moving to Indiana, gotchya.

Michigan has vouchers and I would move back in a heartbeat.... I just don't think it's good policy and, contrary to what you are saying, there are clear winners and losers. It's benefits are not universal.

[Tigeraholic1]

4 minutes ago, 1776 said:

Our son went to a parochial school all twelve years. He met his wife there. No regrets at all. 

My daughter is almost done with college. We only qualified for vouchers her senior year of HS. We paid 8K out of pocket each year for HS and $3500 when she was K-8. My son is in HS and we only pay 2K out of pocket w/voucher covering the rest. We also offer a 403B plan. It used to be for college only, now you can apply it to K-12. We saved like crazy when the kids were young to pay for tuition. I don't think we ate out for six years straight at one point.

[Tigeraholic1]

8 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Michigan has vouchers and I would move back in a heartbeat.... I just don't think it's good policy and, contrary to what you are saying, there are clear winners and losers. It's benefits are not universal.

They have very few k-12 religious schools in Michigan. Moslty charter.

[gehringer_2]

10 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

To answer your question

https://www.pewres

15 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

To answer your question

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/24/most-americans-think-us-k-12-stem-education-isnt-above-average-but-test-results-paint-a-mixed-picture/#:~:text=By Brian Kennedy,pupils in these other countries.

 

earch.org/short-reads/2024/04/24/most-americans-think-us-k-12-stem-education-isnt-above-average-but-test-results-paint-a-mixed-picture/#:~:text=By Brian Kennedy,pupils in these other countries.

 

I have a theory about why the US lags in math. I think it's because elementary school teachers in general tend to be people who do not have strong math skills - if they did the general employment and economic realities push them into other fields. But all those wonderful liberal arts teachers then subliminally inculcate that lack of confidence in the ability of any ordinary person to understand mathematics into their students.

kidding - well maybe half kidding.....

[CMRivdogs]

JVL brought up an interesting point concerning the inauguration. Should Biden and Harris return the favor to Trump by boycotting the event, or should they show up and make it seem like an act of submission in the public's eye. In Trump's world their presence would make them seem weak and like losers.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/you-have-all-these-norms-and-you?utm_campaign=email-post&r=45wcm&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

44 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

DOE created in 1980 U.S. was ranked top 3 education system in the world. I wonder what we rank now? I will take my answer off the air.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/well-developed-public-education-system

Want to take a guess at what countries rank higher than us. Hint, many of them are social social democracies with high taxes and generous welfare programs. Looking at the top 10 rankings from US News and World Reports you'll see many social democratic nations on the list and a few like the UK and Switzerland, that have large welfare states and large social democratic political forces.

1. Denmark - Social democracy

2. Sweden - Social democracy

3. UK - Social democratic elements, if not an outright social democracy

4. Finland - Social democracy

5. Germany - Social democracy

7. Norway - Social democracy

9. Switzerland - Social democratic elements, if not an outright social democracy

Edited Tuesday at 08:04 PM by Mr.TaterSalad

[1776]

I commended Harris for acknowledging the election results early and calling Trump that evening. I would hate to see the reverse happen at the inauguration. But who knows. 

[casimir]

15 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

JVL brought up an interesting point concerning the inauguration. Should Biden and Harris return the favor to Trump by boycotting the event, or should they show up and make it seem like an act of submission in the public's eye. In Trump's world their presence would make them seem weak and like losers.

I don't think you combat Trump by being Trump.

[CMRivdogs]

29 minutes ago, casimir said:

I don't think you combat Trump by being Trump.

I tend to agree. Show the American public your better angels. Trumpers are going to Trump and if they can't Trump they'll whine and pout like the children they are

[CMRivdogs]

Mike Huckabee, next U-S Ambassador to Isreal

[oblong]

37 minutes ago, 1776 said:

I commended Harris for acknowledging the election results early and calling Trump that evening. I would hate to see the reverse happen at the inauguration. But who knows. 

we all know if the results and trends had been exactly reversed that Trump would have called Harris that night and practically disappear a week later.   Right?