A Break. A Breather. A Respite, if you will. Where's your head at?

[Motor City Sonics]

We've reached the point of the season where we pause.    A pause interrupted by two games in Oakland this week.   Two games the Tigers won't win because they never win in Oakland.   

 

Where are you at this point? 

What is your mind set?  

 

Are you.........

Apoplectic.   You expected at least a .500 team this year 

Disappointed.  You knew they wouldn't be much better than 2021

Satisfied.  Few teams have had to deal with the incredible amount of injuries (some of them bizarre) this team has this season. 

Hopeful - Still a lot of youth that has to figure it out at this level and no way several guys have their worst year at the same time again. 

Hopeless - It's really bad and it's probably not getting better in the second half or 2023

 

I feel Apoplectic and Hopeless at this point.    And I'm just f**king sick of the suck in this town with ALL of our teams.   All four major pro teams are at the bottom of their sports.   I see hope for the other 3 teams.     The Wings had a surprising first half last year and totally crumbled in the second half.  New coach. More young talent coming.  Some decent free agents that should strengthen the depth.  The Yzer-plan.      Three straight great drafts for the Pistons now.  They have a very good young nucleus now.  This is the only way a non-glam city is going to have a chance in the star-oriented NBA where everyone wants to play in the pretty cities.   They also look like a group of team-oriented guys, which is the only way it's worked for us in the past in the NBA.   The Lions should be entertaining. No lack of energy on that team.  The coach is a goofball, but an entertaining one and his guys play for him.  What's wrong with trick plays. What's wrong with Tecmo Bowl playcalling.  If you're going to suck, at least be fun.  

The Tigers?  All the current cards in the deck have now been played.    No young star coming anymore.  They've all been here now and most of them have been very disappointing.   Probably not their fault, they were dropped into the middle of a disaster of a lineup.  Can't hide 'em.  We thoughy Green & Tork would be Lou & Alan and it's felt more like Kapler & Fick.   Hell, give me Granderson and Higgy and I'd be alright with it.    I know these 2 are better, but there is little support in the lineup.  The Castros aren't supposed to play every day but they're doing more than much of the rest of the lineup, and that ain't much.  Team just feels cursed.   The draft is now, the trade deadline in a couple of weeks.   I don't care about Chafin, he was a guy signed to be a chip, but Fulmer and Soto, I am very afraid at how badly Avila will screw these deals up.   Don't have to trade them Al.  If you don't get anything you want, just keep them.    I am hoping that after the trade deadline has passed, that Al will be let go.   If not then, then after the season ends.   If that doesn't happen my levels of anger and hopelessness will be as high as they were in the early 2000s.   Not excited for the return of Jake Rogers & Spencer Turnbull. Ryan Kreidler has come back to earth this year and Kerry Carpenter will probably do the same thing next year.

 

It's bad folks.........Really bad.  

 

[LongLiveMaroth]

I am disappointed overall, had some high hopes after the signings and was hopeful to get league average from some our rookies. That being said this team has been decimated by injuries on the pitching side and all things considered that has been a bright spot. Getting real value out of pitchers like Brieske, Foley, Vest is far more than I could have hoped for. I do feel a bit that this season has a bit of a cursed feel to it. With Greene getting injured prior to the season, Meadows with the crazy amount of randomness that has kept him out, E-Rod going AWOL, the whole team essentially forgetting how to hit. I am guessing this is similar to what the Twins felt last year. High expectations only to basically have nothing work out as they planned. That being said I am/will still follow the team the rest of the year if only for individual progress for players like Baddoo, Greene, Skubal, Brieske and Tork if he makes it back up.  

[mtutiger]

34 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

We thoughy Green & Tork would be Lou & Alan and it's felt more like Kapler & Fick.   Hell, give me Granderson and Higgy and I'd be alright with it.   

 

C'mon man. Lou and Alan weren't Lou and Alan at that juncture of their careers either.

Edited July 18, 2022 by mtutiger

[Tenacious D]

[mtutiger]

7 minutes ago, LongLiveMaroth said:

I am disappointed overall, had some high hopes after the signings and was hopeful to get league average from some our rookies. That being said this team has been decimated by injuries on the pitching side and all things considered that has been a bright spot. Getting real value out of pitchers like Brieske, Foley, Vest is far more than I could have hoped for. I do feel a bit that this season has a bit of a cursed feel to it. With Greene getting injured prior to the season, Meadows with the crazy amount of randomness that has kept him out, E-Rod going AWOL, the whole team essentially forgetting how to hit. I am guessing this is similar to what the Twins felt last year. High expectations only to basically have nothing work out as they planned. That being said I am/will still follow the team the rest of the year if only for individual progress for players like Baddoo, Greene, Skubal, Brieske and Tork if he makes it back up.  

I agree with all of this. The resiliency of their pitching with all of the injuries is actually a great story, but for obvious reasons, that's overshadowed by the historically bad nature of the offensive production. Which is ultimately the reason they find themselves 18 games under .500.

I would also clarify that, yes, as bad as the injuries have been, this does reflect on Avila and his ability to build the ballclub.

[John_Brian_K]

I expected close to .500....a few games under maybe, but close.  Hard to judge with the injuries...they really did feel unprecedented.  I am fine with Hinch, not so much with Avila at this point and would be fine if they fire him.  I think the pitching over all has been a real bright spot on the year.

I just cannot help but think something is just really off in the clubhouse with the position players.  Some of the AB's just look lazy and uninspired.  I have a hard time coming up with an answer as to why guys would look so bad at the plate and usually fall back on the idea that the players are not jellying and it festered.  The talent is not really there, but it is not this bad, it should not be this bad.

[Motor City Sonics]

29 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

C'mon man. Lou and Alan weren't Lou and Alan at that juncture of their careers either.

They were better than this. 

[mtutiger]

2 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

They were better than this. 

Tork? Sure

But Greene currently has a better OPS than Tram in his first full season and about the same as Whitaker in his. It's ridiculous to call him Gabe Kapler or Robert Fick based on what we've seen thus far.

Edited July 18, 2022 by mtutiger

[1776]

I’m borderline apathetic. I have lost any and all confidence in the leadership  of this organization. Illitch, Avila, and Hinch. The problem is at the top and runs down. 
Avila admits he doesn’t know why the plan disintegrated this year. But hey, he’s angry 😉. Illitch doesn’t see a problem. That’s pathetic. Honestly, I think Hinch is regretting his decision to come to Detroit. It’s a bad situation all the way around.

I don’t have any confidence whatsoever that any positive change will occur  until some names change at the top. That qualifies as being…borderline apathetic. 

 

[Tiger337]

41 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

C'mon man. Lou and Alan weren't Lou and Alan at that juncture of their careers either.

They combined for 6.6 WAR in their rookie year.  

I have no complaints about Greene so far though.  

Edited July 18, 2022 by Tiger337

[Hongbit]

I feel stupid.   I completely ignored that Al Avila created the organizational philosophy and is making the final call on all decisions.   I should’ve taken this into account before I got excited about the rebuild.   This team is going nowhere until Al is gone.   

[oblong]

I didn't focus on record this year, I wanted to see the young players we were excited about develop.  Everybody got hurt and Tork's bat isn't there.  So I am once again back to just enjoying the time at the ballpark in a social angle and not really worrying about what happens on the field.  one of my last games I realized I spent most of the time talking to the guy behind me and looking around then actually the game.  I hadn't seen him since 2019 because of the pandemic and the fact they couldn't come last year, they live in Canada.  We caught up on 2 years of family life.  Talked about the Red Wings and gambling and Wayne Gretzky....

"Oh, there's a game?"

[buddha]

i'm not apoplectic at all.  the only thing really unexpected is the rash of injuries.  

you had young pitchers and rookie position players and the expectations for them to do very well were outsized.  

you built a team on young pitching and - surprise! - it got hurt and is inconsistent.  welcome to baseball.

i expect tork and greene to be fine in the long run.  greene looks really promising.  tork needs some work but he's still really young.  they arent going to be in their primes for another 6-7 years. 

al avila has been your general manager since 2015.  to expect success from this now is a fool's errand.  the changes everyone lauded about the system of acquiring and developing talent were only recently implemented.  it will take time to show results.

 

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

They combined for 6.6 WAR in their rookie year.  

I have no complaints about Greene so far though.  

Greene has played 27 games, and in that time Greene currently has a better wRC+ than what Tram or Lou finished with in their first year, plus, comparable OPS's. So it's fair to say that, with a full season of ABs (which he won't get this season because of his injury), he would have a chance to hold up his end of the bargain.

I'm not saying that Tram and Lou weren't a better combo in their first year, obviously they were, I just think comparing Riley Greene to either Gabe Kapler or Robert Fick is kinda ridiculous at this point. And that he's probably more comparable to Tram or Lou than he's being given credit for with MCS' framing.

[Toddwert]

apoplectic..... I now see no end of this with the current regime so now I seem to be rooting for bad things to happen so maybe a change will be made..... its not fun

[Tigermojo]

I put the blame on the millionaires who are getting paid to hit the ball and are not doing their jobs. Luckily, most of them will be gone in a few months or next year. I'm really surprised they haven't been able to adjust because they will all be free agents. Minor league deals for all of them haha.

I am still excited about the young talent on the team for years to come. Some of them are injured but we have a bunch of guys under team control who will be in their prime the next 3 to 5 years. They are the only reason I can watch the team right now.

[alex]

   Somewhere between apoplectic and disappointed. I still try to remain optimistic - but if AA does NOT produce another solid on the verge position player prospect (who looks like they can hit) this trade deadline - then he should be relieved of his GM position.

With said I feel he could still help elsewhere in the organization.

There are those old baseball adages: "You can never have enough pitching" and "Everyone is looking for pitching" - well, now that they have two decent position player prospects drafted in the first two rounds, lets get some more pitching (seriously).

Why? because now is the time, this trade deadline, to capitalize on this theory with a trade or two.

Recently, I felt, as did many, that the teams direction was turning the corner. That 2021 showed promise. That many of the younger players would be there for the most part in 2022 (Mize, Manning, Skubal, Tork, Greene, Kriedler, Baddoo, Haase, etc...). That the off-season that followed had provided solid acquisitions (Barnhart, ERod, Baez, Chaffin, Pineda and Meadows).

AA's head was not being called for going into the season.

However, things went south quickly.

Injuries happened. They will always happen. In another matter, and maybe I will start a topic with some thoughts here in the future. For now, rosters really need to expand. Maybe 27 or 28 at least. This is not the same as 'yesteryear' - I may delve into this from a previous trainers perspective and observers standpoint later.

(* Just a little preview: Players may need more time off actually. You are only as good as you can recover. RPs are pitching too much (see how often position players have been pitching). Position players often need 2-3 days off after a minor injury but do NOT get it and then the injury gets worse. IMHO, some of this can be alliviated by expanded rosters. For some reason MLB/MLBPA take too long to make changes. Heck, look how long it took to get past a 25 man roster (to 26) and reduce the ridiculous 40 man expansion in September - both numbers sooo old in there respective dates*).

Back to the current Tigs.

AA (and co.) should be able to get another real hitter in a deal. Some teams will be going for it.

Examples: The NYM could use bullpen help and have little LHP. We need another young promising bat (not a single A player). They have two 3B. One in AA (Baty) and another AAA (Vientos). Package two RPs and add a prospect and get one of them and a lesser prospect. SD is looking for salary relief and RP (re 'everyone is looking for pitching') take on BSnell (esp with the ERod sit and its current salary relief) and/or another contract (WMyers? as ex) and get one of there higher level prospects for RP.

I (as can many here) can come up with several realistic trade proposals.

I know trades are not easy to make. AA tells us all this every time - but this is where he has been lacking. Look at JV, JD, etc. and the returns. He (and his advisors, etc.) need(s) to be objective and make 1-2 good moves this deadline and IMHO - it could really help.

A GM (and staff) has to deliver at times. A good GM does this.

On another note:

Question - why has the hitting gone south. Is someone in the ear of many of the players?

 

[SoCalTiger]

All I can say is if the "Tigers" lament about the injuries and bad luck causing this and bring back the same management and team next year then disappointment will quickly turn to hopelessness. I just don't think Chris Illitch cares very much about his baseball team and retaining Al Avila will only reinforce my suspicion. 

[kdog]

Fire Avila and hire a baseball executive who can properly execute the needed trades and signings to build a competent major league roster. Do not promote from within.

I am willing to let Garko and his new development team work on the farm system. We have seen a few rays of sunshine down there with legacy prospects.

[buddha]

44 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

All I can say is if the "Tigers" lament about the injuries and bad luck causing this and bring back the same management and team next year then disappointment will quickly turn to hopelessness. I just don't think Chris Illitch cares very much about his baseball team and retaining Al Avila will only reinforce my suspicion. 

illitch doesnt know what to do with the baseball team, so he just went with the guy who was there and sold him on all these progressive changes he was making.

i know his dad was super loyal, but he also expected results.  and when he didnt get them, he fired the guy and moved on.  chris doesnt seem to have his father's initiative in that regard.

i dont think its a matter of him "not caring," i think its because he doesnt know anything about baseball or running a baseball team.

[Tiger337]

His father had some pretty bad GMs before hiring Dombrowski.  It took him 11 years to figure it out.  

[mtutiger]

1 minute ago, Tiger337 said:

His father had some pretty bad GMs before hiring Dombrowski.  It took him 11 years to figure it out.  

Correct. 

When Al gets 11 years like Randy Smith, we'll talk then.

[gehringer_2]

3 minutes ago, buddha said:

illitch doesnt know what to do with the baseball team, so he just went with the guy who was there and sold him on all these progressive changes he was making.

i know his dad was super loyal, but he also expected results.  and when he didnt get them, he fired the guy and moved on.  chris doesnt seem to have his father's initiative in that regard.

i dont think its a matter of him "not caring," i think its because he doesnt know anything about baseball or running a baseball team.

To be fair, I suppose it can be a tricky business for an owner to research a new GM when most of his baseball info comes to him filtered through his current FO.

Interestingly, Avila is about the same distance into his tenure with Chris (5yrs) as the 6 yrs it took Mike to fire Randy Smith. 

[1984Echoes]

Disappointed.

But with still-a-huge-amount-of-upside.

[CMRivdogs]

If I recall it took Mr I a few years before he caught on. Of course he had to dig out of the rubble left my Mr Domino's "pizza". Mike had the passion just wasn't up on the working knowledge of an MLB team. He relied on Jerry Reinsdorf for a while on the political ins and outs. I think it was Bud Selig that helped with the hiring of John McHale Jr who brought in Randy Smith before Mr I decided on Dave Dombrowski a few years later. Basically Mr I had the Tigers wandering thru the wilderness for about 10 years before they got their act somewhat together.

Unfortunately MLB's current leadership is no help to the teams who may be struggling, other than making stupid rule changes and gimmicks. Chris may be a decent caretaker, he lacks the passion.

And yes it's time to move on from AA. Move him upstairs make him an executive vp or something.