A Break. A Breather. A Respite, if you will. Where's your head at?

[Edman85]

Where's my mind? Elsewhere

[Tiger337]

My mind is elsewhere and has been for a while.  I still follow the game closely, but I am a lot less emotionally invested than I used to be.  I no longer sit and watch the Tigers for three hours every night. I typically have the game on in the background as I do other stuff and will pay closer attention to the game on and off.   

[Hongbit]

It’s gotten to the ultimate low point where I’d rather sit in the den and talk to my wife about her day than watch the Tigers in the other room.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Hongbit

[Tenacious D]

17 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

It’s gotten to the ultimate low point where I’d rather sit in the den and talk to my wife about her day than watch the Tigers in the other room.

I’ve even considered reading books instead.

[1776]

58 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

I’ve even considered reading books instead.

Read Willie Horton’s newly released book. It was a good one. All Tiger fans will enjoy it. 

[Tenacious D]

14 minutes ago, 1776 said:

Read Willie Horton’s newly released book. It was a good one. All Tiger fans will enjoy it. 

I’ll wait for the Netflix adaptation.

[IdahoBert]

it wouldn’t be so bad if I hadn’t got excited and hopeful. But it’s really bad. For the first time years I often forget there’s even a game then check the score after it’s over. I don’t get the highs but I don’t get the lows so since there’s a lot more of those I’m better off not paying attention. 

[gehringer_2]

How often do you get half way into a season without a single positive surprise from any position player? When the rookie who was out half the season and is just holding his own is the high point of your offense, it’s a painful world. Even the Cabrera narrative is pure frustration. Miguel, you can still hit almost 300 but you can’t figure out even once in a while how to hit it hard anymore?

Edited July 20, 2022 by gehringer_2

[SoCalTiger]

I hope Miguel retires this year because  the Tigers pay him to not play in 2023. 
I know not likely but he could very well slide statistically these last 70 games and realize he is looking at a .250 singles hitter for next year and his pride takes over. The team is better without him and with an open dh and bigger bench. 

[chasfh]

I don’t think the Tigers would pay $32 million to actively forego Miggy reaching career milestones they can promote.

[Jim Cowan]

Yeah, he's not going anywhere, he is playing next year for his curtain call.  I don't mind at all, he is one of the few interesting people on the team.

[John_Brian_K]

Miggy is not going anywhere...it makes no sense at all.

[mtutiger]

5 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

I hope Miguel retires this year because  the Tigers pay him to not play in 2023. 
I know not likely but he could very well slide statistically these last 70 games and realize he is looking at a .250 singles hitter for next year and his pride takes over. The team is better without him and with an open dh and bigger bench. 

Are they?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I look forward to the day when he's one of the worst hitters in the lineup. They aren't there yet, which says more about the Tigers than it does about Miggy at this point. And unfortunately, they aren't likely to be there by the end of next year.

Edited July 20, 2022 by mtutiger

[sabretooth]

19 hours ago, chasfh said:

Believe it or not, we are in the middle of what could end up being the worst six-year stretch in the previously-storied history of the Detroit Tigers.

In the six seasons 2017 to 2022, so far, the overall record is 312-560, for a four-digit winning percentage of .3578. That is worse than even the 1998-2003 stretch, when the Tigers' record was 377-676, coming in at .3580. And unless I'm mistaken, 2022 was supposed to be in the middle of our window to contend after six years of tanking for draft picks and selling All-Stars for prospects. A team is not supposed to be challenging the 100-loss mark in Year Six of a rebuild. This organization is doing exactly that.

I believe both this version of ownership and this front office are simply incompetent, and as long as both remain in place as currently constructed, I have no reasonable hope for this franchise. I'll still root for the team because I'm a native and it's still my birthright, and I will savor whatever victories they achieve along the way. But I will expect nothing but losing until changes are made at the top.

100 correct.  its the owner....and by virtue of his incompetence and prioritizing risk free profits rather than prioritizing on field success, his GM will always be hamstrung, even if Chris somehow lucks into hiring a superior GM talent-wise.

[gehringer_2]

3 hours ago, chasfh said:

I don’t think the Tigers would pay $32 million to actively forego Miggy reaching career milestones they can promote.

it is/will be a measure of what kind of team they are. Of course if this year had gone to plan, then the plan would have been that next year they would not have wanted to carry an 80 OPS+ DH. Given the results this year have demonstrated that contending for anything next year is probably fanciful, then there is no dilemma to carry a sub-replacement DH.

Edited July 20, 2022 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

9 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

100 correct.  its the owner....and by virtue of his incompetence and prioritizing risk free profits rather than prioritizing on field success, his GM will always be hamstrung, even if Chris somehow lucks into hiring a superior GM talent-wise.

I do see a sliver of a potential silver lining in this: I don't sense that Baby Doc is a hands-on owner to anywhere near the same degree that Papa Doc was. It wouldn't have mattered who the GM was—if Papa wanted to trade for Prince, or sign Jordan Zimmermann, or extend Miggy to enshrine his legacy as a Tiger, then gosh darn it, wasn't no one gonna stop him. In terms of fulfilling his wish to win a ring, in that specific way, Papa was his own worst enemy.

But I could see a situation where Baby surprises us all by hiring a sharp, innovative, young GM out of a forward-thinking system, and then largely stays out of the way while he's gallivanting about looking for pennies-on-the-dollar real estate deals around town. If true, then worst case, Baby Doc puts his ugly thumbprint only on the Red Wings rebuild, in the belief that he knows at least as much about hockey as Stevie does.

[RatkoVarda]

I suspect the pitching will regress (maybe significantly so) in the second half due to pitch limits, more rookies up, trades, injuries, the league getting a second look at guys; and no reason to think hitting will turn around after Grossman released, and Candy and Schoop are shoved aside for Clemens and others. Shocking if they don't finish in 5th place.

[gehringer_2]

3 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

I suspect the pitching will regress (maybe significantly so) in the second half due to pitch limits, more rookies up, trades, injuries, the league getting a second look at guys; and no reason to think hitting will turn around after Grossman released, and Candy and Schoop are shoved aside for Clemens and others. Shocking if they don't finish in 5th place.

Yeah - I don't think they will try to squeeze many more innings out of Brieske and who knows what is going on with Faedo's hip. Rodriguez, even if he shows up is a full spring training away from contributing, so we are past him being any help even if his 'situation' resolves.

If they were really, really lucky, Skubal regains his touch, Manning is effective and they get some starts from Turnbull and he is effective. If all that happens they might not see a starting pitching regression, but that would require a level of best of all possible worlds good luck as least equal the the worst of all possible worlds bad luck they have had with the hitting!

[mtutiger]

24 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

If they were really, really lucky, Skubal regains his touch, Manning is effective and they get some starts from Turnbull and he is effective. If all that happens they might not see a starting pitching regression, but that would require a level of best of all possible worlds good luck as least equal the the worst of all possible worlds bad luck they have had with the hitting!

Joey Wentz is another guy who hopefully comes back as well. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by mtutiger

[oblong]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I do see a sliver of a potential silver lining in this: I don't sense that Baby Doc is a hands-on owner to anywhere near the same degree that Papa Doc was. It wouldn't have mattered who the GM was—if Papa wanted to trade for Prince, or sign Jordan Zimmermann, or extend Miggy to enshrine his legacy as a Tiger, then gosh darn it, wasn't no one gonna stop him. In terms of fulfilling his wish to win a ring, in that specific way, Papa was his own worst enemy.

But I could see a situation where Baby surprises us all by hiring a sharp, innovative, young GM out of a forward-thinking system, and then largely stays out of the way while he's gallivanting about looking for pennies-on-the-dollar real estate deals around town. If true, then worst case, Baby Doc puts his ugly thumbprint only on the Red Wings rebuild, in the belief that he knows at least as much about hockey as Stevie does.

I have heard that his food empire, both pizza and distribution, were always cutting edge technology wise. Chris did not just inherit that business.  He ran it directly.

 

 

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I do see a sliver of a potential silver lining in this: I don't sense that Baby Doc is a hands-on owner to anywhere near the same degree that Papa Doc was. It wouldn't have mattered who the GM was—if Papa wanted to trade for Prince, or sign Jordan Zimmermann, or extend Miggy to enshrine his legacy as a Tiger, then gosh darn it, wasn't no one gonna stop him. In terms of fulfilling his wish to win a ring, in that specific way, Papa was his own worst enemy.

But I could see a situation where Baby surprises us all by hiring a sharp, innovative, young GM out of a forward-thinking system, and then largely stays out of the way while he's gallivanting about looking for pennies-on-the-dollar real estate deals around town. If true, then worst case, Baby Doc puts his ugly thumbprint only on the Red Wings rebuild, in the belief that he knows at least as much about hockey as Stevie does.

I do think there's truth to this insofar that Chris I's ownership would look a lot better / more acceptable with better management.

Because having the exact opposite type of owner who involves themselves too much (ie. Jerry Jones) isn't much better than Chris I.

Edited July 20, 2022 by mtutiger

[sabretooth]

4 hours ago, chasfh said:

I do see a sliver of a potential silver lining in this: I don't sense that Baby Doc is a hands-on owner to anywhere near the same degree that Papa Doc was. It wouldn't have mattered who the GM was—if Papa wanted to trade for Prince, or sign Jordan Zimmermann, or extend Miggy to enshrine his legacy as a Tiger, then gosh darn it, wasn't no one gonna stop him. In terms of fulfilling his wish to win a ring, in that specific way, Papa was his own worst enemy.

But I could see a situation where Baby surprises us all by hiring a sharp, innovative, young GM out of a forward-thinking system, and then largely stays out of the way while he's gallivanting about looking for pennies-on-the-dollar real estate deals around town. If true, then worst case, Baby Doc puts his ugly thumbprint only on the Red Wings rebuild, in the belief that he knows at least as much about hockey as Stevie does.

You are right, thats about the only way through this mess. 

Honestly, though, I think it takes more than keeping the owner out of the way.  Even a great GM needs the owner to be engaged enough so that the owner will be willing to put heavy resources behind good players and ideas whenever its needed and beneficial, even and especially early on in the new GMs tenure.

The most rock headed thing about Chris and AAs plan, other than the tanking itself, is that the plan seems to have been utterly and mercilessly sequential. 

FIRST you get rid of all of your good players.  Whoops, we recieved absolutely NOTHING of lasting value in return...Candy being the closest thing.

SECOND, you tank for years.  Success! 

After a couple of years of that....

THIRD you build a sustainable farm system with up to date technology (years after everyone else of course).  Utterly failed at this, unfortunately.

FOURTH, you hire a proven manager, provided hes damaged goods and you can get him cheap.  Success!

FIFTH, you spend a little bit and see if that makes things a little better.  Success in 2021!

SIXTH, if that improves things you spend more, but still keep the payroll well below average.  FAIL in 2022.

FOLLOW THE PLAN.  If you paint all of the designated spaces in the right sequence, you will complete a lovely velvet Elvis, suitable for your collection.  They may yet succeed at this.

Contrast Chris and AAs paint by numbers failure, which took forever to unfold with what Theo did in Chicago.

Contrary to some reports, Theo pushed all of the buttons (Draft, Develop, Trade, FAs) more or less at the same time after a brief 2 season retooling.  Theo did not lead them through a long tanking for picks process.

If Chris had the brains and the guts to hire Theo, that would be amazing.  His dad would have considered it, and might have done it too in the same situation.  I cant imagine that with Chris.

[HeyAbbott]

Maybe we are expecting too much for a Detroit team. After all, the last time the lions won a championship was in 1957. We are not even at the 20 year mark of this rebuild. Anyway, it looks like we will be mired in sub mediocrity for years to come.

[sabretooth]

4 hours ago, mtutiger said:

I do think there's truth to this insofar that Chris I's ownership would look a lot better / more acceptable with better management.

Because having the exact opposite type of owner who involves themselves too much (ie. Jerry Jones) isn't much better than Chris I.

Better management will get you so far, but if better management isn't going to be backed with sufficient resources to win, then better management isn't going to build winner by itself.

If you subtract Miggy's contract, they are currently below $100 million dollars of team salary with a league average up over $140 million.  

Even a top flight GM would be hard pressed to put a winning team on the field with meager resources like that.

[Tiger337]

4 hours ago, mtutiger said:

Joey Wentz is another guy who hopefully comes back as well. 

Comes back from what?  He got hot for a few weeks three years ago.  He's a still a prospect, but I don't see him as anything special at this point.