A Break. A Breather. A Respite, if you will. Where's your head at?

[sabretooth]

14 hours ago, chasfh said:

The Velvet Elvis Plan. Nice analogy!

I think the kid might spend to support the franchise, which would mean he is incented to engage. He was willing to throw a decent chunk of money at those they thought would be key players. It's just that the jury is still out on Baez, but the rest of them are clunkers, except Chafin. That's a 1 in 4 success rate on key acquisitions from outside this winter. Ya need better than a 25% hit rate on that kind of thing if ya aim to win.

But if the kid were to get the right GM in, one who knows how to lead an organization that's top of the class in talent evaluation, I would assume the money would be better spent, and with a better return, the kid might be talked into spending more if needed to win, or more exactly, it would yield better than breakeven on ROI. I'm not 100% on that opinion, but there's at least a puncher's chance he could be

Yeah, I had hoped that Avilas moves and the professional projections of 80 wins this year would be enough to position the team to compete for a playoff slot this year if lucky, or by next year, and Chris would feel validated and spend at least average payroll $$ to move the team into competitive mode for a few years. 

Chris has never hired any major FO personnel, right?  He would need to "nail it" on his first try, after misjudging Avila's talent level for 5+ years....it seems improbable that Chris would land "the kid", but that may be our only hope at this point.

[SoCalTiger]

So most folks want Miggy for 2023. What if his line is .260 .290 .310 do you still want him ? And Meadows is playing crap defense in the outfield to accommodate him at DH. And Hinch doesn’t have the guts to bat him 8th. 
And his legacy as a great HOF player is tarnished. Still want him ?

I sure as heck hope this doesn’t happen but I think we should get ahead of it so we have the off-season to shop and trade for something much much better. He has his 500 home runs his 600 doubles and his 3000 hits everything else is not really a mile stone marker. he’s made his case for the Hall of Fame and then some .time to move on people otherwise are we really serious about winning?

[RatkoVarda]

doubtful and pathetic that they will field a team in 2023 where Miggy is not one of the best 13 options

[1984Echoes]

3 hours ago, buddha said:

miggy isnt blocking anyone next year.  let him dh and get some more hits.

Kerry Carpenter goes on to have a Matt Joyce (12th rounder) type of career (111 OPS+, 10 Career WAR).

But he has it with another team, not the Tigers, because:

"Miggy isn't blocking anyone". I disagree with this premise, 100%

[1984Echoes]

40 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

So most folks want Miggy for 2023. What if his line is .260 .290 .310 do you still want him ? And Meadows is playing crap defense in the outfield to accommodate him at DH. And Hinch doesn’t have the guts to bat him 8th. 
And his legacy as a great HOF player is tarnished. Still want him ?

I sure as heck hope this doesn’t happen but I think we should get ahead of it so we have the off-season to shop and trade for something much much better. He has his 500 home runs his 600 doubles and his 3000 hits everything else is not really a mile stone marker. he’s made his case for the Hall of Fame and then some .time to move on people otherwise are we really serious about winning?

When Miggy turns into pathetic, and a humiliating embarrassment, in 2023...

Because yeah, that's what we really want to see...

Because, reasons...

[1776]

I’ve always believed Miggy’s contract had a lot to do with Verlander being squeezed out. That in addition to that disastrous VMart contract. Hated it then and I hate it now.

[buddha]

9 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Kerry Carpenter goes on to have a Matt Joyce (12th rounder) type of career (111 OPS+, 10 Career WAR).

But he has it with another team, not the Tigers, because:

"Miggy isn't blocking anyone". I disagree with this premise, 100%

the choice is "keep miggy and lose carpenter"?

you can keep them both.

[buddha]

51 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

So most folks want Miggy for 2023. What if his line is .260 .290 .310 do you still want him ? And Meadows is playing crap defense in the outfield to accommodate him at DH. And Hinch doesn’t have the guts to bat him 8th. 
And his legacy as a great HOF player is tarnished. Still want him ?

I sure as heck hope this doesn’t happen but I think we should get ahead of it so we have the off-season to shop and trade for something much much better. He has his 500 home runs his 600 doubles and his 3000 hits everything else is not really a mile stone marker. he’s made his case for the Hall of Fame and then some .time to move on people otherwise are we really serious about winning?

i'm fine with it.  

[mtutiger]

53 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

So most folks want Miggy for 2023. What if his line is .260 .290 .310 do you still want him ? And Meadows is playing crap defense in the outfield to accommodate him at DH. And Hinch doesn’t have the guts to bat him 8th. 
And his legacy as a great HOF player is tarnished. Still want him ?

I sure as heck hope this doesn’t happen but I think we should get ahead of it so we have the off-season to shop and trade for something much much better. He has his 500 home runs his 600 doubles and his 3000 hits everything else is not really a mile stone marker. he’s made his case for the Hall of Fame and then some .time to move on people otherwise are we really serious about winning?

Can't speak for others, but I wouldn't characterize my position as "wanting" or "not wanting", but rather a reflection of reality.... they aren't going to move on from Miggy, particularly with the current way that the roster is structured.

Having said that, I don't understand what Miggy's presence does to preclude the Tigers from shopping or trading in order to make the roster better during this trade deadline or in the offseason. The only way Miggy impacts, IMO, is because of salary obligations, but even there he's a sunk cost at this point; contracts are guaranteed in this sport, so the Tigers on the hook regardless.

As stated earlier, I do believe if we're hoping for a reduced role for Miggy in 2023, it requires Akil Baddoo to reach his potential and for Austin Meadows to (finally) return and show some signs of life in August. If that happens, you could see a scenario where Meadows needs occasional DH duty, especially if the Tigers were to go out and look for another outfielder in the offseason (they should, but Chris I / Al may have different thoughts) or if someone like Kerry Carpenter comes up and looks decent (despite his massive numbers in AA/AAA, I'll believe it when I see it)

Edited July 21, 2022 by mtutiger

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, buddha said:

the choice is "keep miggy and lose carpenter"?

you can keep them both.

The Tigers will have some decisions in terms of the 40 man because Carpenter (among a number of other players) is Rule 5 eligible this offseason, but if they believe in him, they'll find a way to keep him regardless of Miggy's presence.

Edited July 21, 2022 by mtutiger

[buddha]

2 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

The Tigers will have some decisions in terms of the 40 man because Carpenter (among a number of other players) is Rule 5 eligible this offseason, but if they believe in him, they'll find a way to keep him regardless of Miggy's presence.

there's more than enough bad on the tigers 40 man roster to keep them both.

[1984Echoes]

10 minutes ago, buddha said:

the choice is "keep miggy and lose carpenter"?

you can keep them both.

Not if you start losing minor leaguers due to 40-man and Rule 5 considerations. And we have a boatload of Rule 5 eligible guys this year. I believe including Carpenter.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, SoCalTiger said:

So most folks want Miggy for 2023. What if his line is .260 .290 .310 do you still want him ? And Meadows is playing crap defense in the outfield to accommodate him at DH. And Hinch doesn’t have the guts to bat him 8th. 
And his legacy as a great HOF player is tarnished. Still want him ?

I sure as heck hope this doesn’t happen but I think we should get ahead of it so we have the off-season to shop and trade for something much much better. He has his 500 home runs his 600 doubles and his 3000 hits everything else is not really a mile stone marker. he’s made his case for the Hall of Fame and then some .time to move on people otherwise are we really serious about winning?

His legacy as a great Hall of Famer won't change because of one really crappy year at the end.  That happens to a lot of Hall of Famers.  I think his legacy has already been tarnished somewhat by his several seasons of mediocrity.  He  has gone from being a Frank Robinson - Hank Aaron level legend to a great but not elite Hall of Famer.  There is no shame in that but it would have been nice to see the former.  Pujols is kind of the same way except I think he is still in the elite tier just because the first half of his career was so amazing.  

[mtutiger]

2 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Not if you start losing minor leaguers due to 40-man and Rule 5 considerations. And we have a boatload of Rule 5 eligible guys this year. I believe including Carpenter.

They are gonna lose some guys off the current 40 man roster due to trades and / or expiring contracts (Grossman, Barnhart, Pineda, Fulmer all obvious candidates, possibly Chafin or Soto as well), so they'll have some opportunities to find room for them. 

But yeah, even with this subpar roster, it will be more challenging than normal.

[1984Echoes]

9 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

They are gonna lose some guys off the current 40 man roster due to trades and / or expiring contracts (Grossman, Barnhart, Pineda, Fulmer all obvious candidates, possibly Chafin or Soto as well), so they'll have some opportunities to find room for them. 

But yeah, even with this subpar roster, it will be more challenging than normal.

There's a list somewhere... but I can't seem to find it...

[John_Brian_K]

40 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

His legacy as a great Hall of Famer won't change because of one really crappy year at the end.  That happens to a lot of Hall of Famers.  I think his legacy has already been tarnished somewhat by his several seasons of mediocrity.  He  has gone from being a Frank Robinson - Hank Aaron level legend to a great but not elite Hall of Famer.  There is no shame in that but it would have been nice to see the former.  Pujols is kind of the same way except I think he is still in the elite tier just because the first half of his career was so amazing.  

How many elite guys are there through baseball history in your opinion?

[Jim Cowan]

1 hour ago, SoCalTiger said:

So most folks want Miggy for 2023. What if his line is .260 .290 .310 do you still want him ? And Meadows is playing crap defense in the outfield to accommodate him at DH. And Hinch doesn’t have the guts to bat him 8th. 
And his legacy as a great HOF player is tarnished. Still want him ?

No one "wants" him.  Everyone here, without exception, would make that 8th year disappear if it were in their power to do so.  But we can't, it is there, and he's going to play and there isn't any fantasy world in which he isn't.

[Tiger337]

14 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

How many elite guys are there through baseball history in your opinion?

I don't have an exact number, but there are too many players ahead of him for me to consider him elite.  Just based on hitting, he may be top 50 all-time but not top 25 and he doesn't add a lot of value beyond hitting. 

Just looking at Tigers players, he is probably 5th behind Cobb, Kaline, Gehringer and Greenberg.  He does not compare to Cobb who is elite by any standard.  He falls maybe half way between Kaline (semi-elite) and Whitaker/Trammell (not elite).

[Tiger337]

35 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

No one "wants" him.  Everyone here, without exception, would make that 8th year disappear if it were in their power to do so.  But we can't, it is there, and he's going to play and there isn't any fantasy world in which he isn't.

Unless Eduardo Rodriguez can convince him that the non-baseball life is a good one!

[John_Brian_K]

3 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I don't have an exact number, but there are too many players ahead of him for me to consider him elite.  Just based on hitting, he may be top 50 all-time but not top 25 and he doesn't add a lot of value beyond hitting. 

Just looking at Tigers players, he is probably 5th behind Cobb, Kaline, Gehringer and Greenberg.  He does not compare to Cobb who is elite by any standard.  He falls maybe half way between Kaline (semi-elite) and Whitaker/Trammell (not elite).

Alright, that seems fair.  As an overall player I would agree Miggy is somewhere in the 30 range all time and nowhere close to Cobb IMO.  Kalines defense really keeps him above Miggy on an all time Tiger list IMO.  That is just based on what I have read.  I never saw Kaline play myself.

Miggy is just all about hitting.  No real speed to speak of, not horrible, but nowhere near great in the field.

Just curious where (roughly) you would put Miggy just on the all time RH hitter list?

[Tenacious D]

If Miggy doesn’t get hurt, his career offensive stats would encroach upon the top 10 all-time in many categories.  He’s not going anywhere next season—he might see his playing time reduced, but he’ll be allowed to retire on his terms.  Maybe he can pitch in the blowouts?

The 40-man roster squeeze is real, but will be for all teams.  The Castro boys and Candy might be vulnerable, but as others have pointed out, we have some guys with expiring contracts which will help.

[microline133]

For all but the deepest and most well-rounded (strong MLB roster with a deep developmental system) teams in MLB, the 40-man roster squeeze is far more fan creation than reality. There's a significant portion of the Tigers 40-man roster that is still sub par at this point, meaning they have plenty of flexibility to manipulate the roster in any way they need to this off-season, with or without Miggy in the mix.

[buddha]

3 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I don't have an exact number, but there are too many players ahead of him for me to consider him elite.  Just based on hitting, he may be top 50 all-time but not top 25 and he doesn't add a lot of value beyond hitting. 

Just looking at Tigers players, he is probably 5th behind Cobb, Kaline, Gehringer and Greenberg.  He does not compare to Cobb who is elite by any standard.  He falls maybe half way between Kaline (semi-elite) and Whitaker/Trammell (not elite).

are you giving greenberg credit for the war years?   i think miggy is pretty comparable to greenberg, but i can see the argument that he's just behind him.

if cobb is your only "elite" tiger you've got a pretty small group of elite players in the big scheme of things.

cobb is probably top 5 at least, right?

ruth, bonds, williams.....wagner?  

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, buddha said:

are you giving greenberg credit for the war years?   i think miggy is pretty comparable to greenberg, but i can see the argument that he's just behind him.

if cobb is your only "elite" tiger you've got a pretty small group of elite players in the big scheme of things.

cobb is probably top 5 at least, right?

ruth, bonds, williams.....wagner?  

Yes, I always give players credit for their war years and Greenberg had a lot of them.  I think they are pretty close, but I believe Greenberg has the edge.     

I don't have a cut off for "elite".  The  point is there are a significant number of hitters who are far enough ahead of him to be considered a different tier.  Up until age 33, he was on a Hank Aaron/ Frank Robinson career path.  Had he stayed on that path, I would have considered him elite. 

[Tiger337]

11 minutes ago, buddha said:

are you giving greenberg credit for the war years?   i think miggy is pretty comparable to greenberg, but i can see the argument that he's just behind him.

if cobb is your only "elite" tiger you've got a pretty small group of elite players in the big scheme of things.

cobb is probably top 5 at least, right?

ruth, bonds, williams.....wagner?  

Ruth, Bonds, Mays, Cobb...Maybe Aaron instead of Williams.  Not sure. Wagner needs to be considered too.