A Break. A Breather. A Respite, if you will. Where's your head at?

[RandyMarsh]

Ruth, Williams, Bonds, Cobb and Mays would probably be my top 5 with guys like Aaron, Mantle and a couple others in the discussion. To me Ruth, Williams and Bonds are probably in their own tier, their all around offensive numbers particularly at their peak are just so absurdly good and better than everybody else. 

[Tiger337]

Williams might be the number one hitter ever.  He didn't do anything beyond that which is why I put him behind Ruth, Bonds, Cobb, Mays.  

[buddha]

  On 7/21/2022 at 11:21 PM, Tiger337 said:

Williams might be the number one hitter ever.  He didn't do anything beyond that which is why I put him behind Ruth, Bonds, Cobb, Mays.  

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he is if you give him credit for his war years.

[Tiger337]

  On 7/21/2022 at 11:43 PM, buddha said:

he is if you give him credit for his war years.

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It's either Williams or Ruth.  Williams edges him statistically, but it's hard for me to get away from the idea that Ruth completely transformed the game.  Ruth is number one overall because he was also a very good pitcher.  

[sabretooth]

Just to clarify, I have zero concern about Miggy squeezing someone out of a roster spot.  I simply don't want to see him or anybody at DH whose only skill is hitting soft singles the other way. 

If he was a young player who excelled at running the bases and fielding a position, and could leg out doubles, stolen bases and what-not, that would be something.  

The last time he added value to the team was 2016.  He played out the string and hit his milestones.  If they have the kind of roster where he's coming off the bench that's OK, but everyday at DH in the heart of the order is just a sign that the FO is failing at their basic job.

[1984Echoes]

  On 7/22/2022 at 12:07 AM, Tiger337 said:

It's either Williams or Ruth.  Williams edges him statistically, but it's hard for me to get away from the idea that Ruth completely transformed the game.  Ruth is number one overall because he was also a very good pitcher.  

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Which also means he wasn't a full-time hitter until 1919, at the age of 24. So from 19-23, when he was in MLB, limited PA's... almost as if he lost the equivalent of 3-4 years, although he was obviously very young at the time... and the ball may very well have been a whole lot "deader" at the time anyways... still.

[1984Echoes]

  On 7/22/2022 at 12:35 AM, sabretooth said:

....  I simply don't want to see him or anybody at DH whose only skill is hitting soft singles the other way...

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Point.

[buddha]

  On 7/22/2022 at 12:07 AM, Tiger337 said:

It's either Williams or Ruth.  Williams edges him statistically, but it's hard for me to get away from the idea that Ruth completely transformed the game.  Ruth is number one overall because he was also a very good pitcher.  

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ruth and jackie robinson (and larry doby) are the most important baseball players in history.

ruth is the best player of all time, imo.  changed the game.  dominated the game.  and was one of the best pitchers in the game to boot.

[Jim Cowan]

  On 7/22/2022 at 12:35 AM, sabretooth said:

Just to clarify, I have zero concern about Miggy squeezing someone out of a roster spot.  I simply don't want to see him or anybody at DH whose only skill is hitting soft singles the other way. 

If he was a young player who excelled at running the bases and fielding a position, and could leg out doubles, stolen bases and what-not, that would be something.  

The last time he added value to the team was 2016.  He played out the string and hit his milestones.  If they have the kind of roster where he's coming off the bench that's OK, but everyday at DH in the heart of the order is just a sign that the FO is failing at their basic job.

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It doesn't matter what anyone here wants.  He's playing.  There is no credible scenario in which he does not play in 2023.

 

[AlaskanTigersFan]

Just curious. Do you think the era also has something to do with how good hitters are? I mean back in the '60s and '70s, 90 mph was considered extreme. Now guys are hitting 105. Do you really think Williams would compete with pitchers throwing 105 mph nowadays?

 

Also, sac flies used to count as hits. So you have to keep that in consideration with talking about batting average, on base % and total hits.

[buddha]

  On 7/22/2022 at 3:26 AM, AlaskanTigersFan said:

Just curious. Do you think the era also has something to do with how good hitters are? I mean back in the '60s and '70s, 90 mph was considered extreme. Now guys are hitting 105. Do you really think Williams would compete with pitchers throwing 105 mph nowadays?

 

Also, sac flies used to count as hits. So you have to keep that in consideration with talking about batting average, on base % and total hits.

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if williams were playing today he would likely be bigger and stronger and able to take advantage of all the advances that help today's hitters.  he was a physical freak for his time with eyesight and reflexes so good he was a master fighter pilot tabbed to fight in TWO wars.

[sabretooth]

  On 7/22/2022 at 1:53 AM, Jim Cowan said:

It doesn't matter what anyone here wants.  He's playing.  There is no credible scenario in which he does not play in 2023.

 

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I didnt say there was

[RandyMarsh]

To me when you judge players of any sport all you can do is judge how they did relative to their peers anything else is pure speculation.

[sabretooth]

  On 7/22/2022 at 11:07 AM, RandyMarsh said:

To me when you judge players of any sport all you can do is judge how they did relative to their peers anything else is pure speculation.

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Yeah.

[chasfh]

  On 7/22/2022 at 10:43 AM, buddha said:

if williams were playing today he would likely be bigger and stronger and able to take advantage of all the advances that help today's hitters.  he was a physical freak for his time with eyesight and reflexes so good he was a master fighter pilot tabbed to fight in TWO wars.

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If he would be bigger and stronger and taking advantage of nutrition and training and medical advances and analytics and all the rest of it, he wouldn’t be Ted Williams at all. He’d be somebody else.

[Tiger337]

  On 7/22/2022 at 1:00 PM, chasfh said:

If he would be bigger and stronger and taking advantage of nutrition and training and medical advances and analytics and all the rest of it, he wouldn’t be Ted Williams at all. He’d be somebody else.

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If Trout played in the 50s, he would be somebody else too.  

[IdahoBert]

  On 7/22/2022 at 12:07 AM, Tiger337 said:

It's either Williams or Ruth.  Williams edges him statistically, but it's hard for me to get away from the idea that Ruth completely transformed the game.  Ruth is number one overall because he was also a very good pitcher.  

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Aside from his prodigious physical abilities did Ruth gain some insight into how pitchers think by being one or is that an advantage that can be exhausted pretty quickly?

[John_Brian_K]

  On 7/21/2022 at 11:06 PM, RandyMarsh said:

Ruth, Williams, Bonds, Cobb and Mays would probably be my top 5 with guys like Aaron, Mantle and a couple others in the discussion. To me Ruth, Williams and Bonds are probably in their own tier, their all around offensive numbers particularly at their peak are just so absurdly good and better than everybody else. 

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Get ready to add Trout and Ohtani to that list in the next 15 years...

[buddha]

  On 7/22/2022 at 1:00 PM, chasfh said:

If he would be bigger and stronger and taking advantage of nutrition and training and medical advances and analytics and all the rest of it, he wouldn’t be Ted Williams at all. He’d be somebody else.

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first of all, its a ridiculous hypothetical.  but he would still be ted williams, only with better nutrition and an instagram presence.

[mtutiger]

  On 7/22/2022 at 1:57 PM, buddha said:

first of all, its a ridiculous hypothetical.  but he would still be ted williams, only with better nutrition and an instagram presence.

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Maybe they can clone him and we could live out this hypothetical in a few years?

[Tiger337]

  On 7/22/2022 at 1:43 PM, John_Brian_K said:

Get ready to add Trout and Ohtani to that list in the next 15 years...

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I don't know.  Pujols looked like he was headed for the top 10 or even 5 until he faded in the second half of his career.  It's tough to last long enough to get into the upper ecchelon.  Trout is already having trouble staying healthy and he is only 30.  Ohtani is interesting because he is doing something nobody has ever done at the same level, but he'll have to do it for a long time.     

[Dtrain72]

I'm actually kinda glad Greene missed most of the first half of the season...looks like MLB pitchers have figured him out lately; couple that with what Coolbaugh has done to these hitters, and if Riley had started the season from the get go, he could very well have been in the same car with Tork heading back to Toledo.

[John_Brian_K]

  On 7/22/2022 at 2:02 PM, Tiger337 said:

I don't know.  Pujols looked like he was headed for the top 10 or even 5 until he faded in the second half of his career.  It's tough to last long enough to get into the upper ecchelon.  Trout is already having trouble staying healthy and he is only 30.  Ohtani is interesting because he is doing something nobody has ever done at the same level, but he'll have to do it for a long time.     

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Well plus Pujols is probably like 65 right now...😆

Ohtani is basically the current day Ruth...at the moment...he will have to keep us this kind of pace for awhile like you mentioned.  To show my ignorance on Ruths career...he did hit and pitch at the same time right?  IIRC he started as a pitcher then transitioned to hitter, but did still do both for a period?  I am too busy to look it up right now.

[mtutiger]

  On 7/22/2022 at 2:04 PM, Dtrain72 said:

I'm actually kinda glad Greene missed most of the first half of the season...looks like MLB pitchers have figured him out lately; couple that with what Coolbaugh has done to these hitters, and if Riley had started the season from the get go, he could very well have been in the same car with Tork heading back to Toledo.

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I don't think Riley is in any danger of being sent to Toledo at this point.... he's holding his own.

[Dtrain72]

  On 7/22/2022 at 2:11 PM, mtutiger said:

I don't think Riley is in any danger of being sent to Toledo at this point.... he's holding his own.

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I agree with that...and he will and should get the remainder of the season at this point.  But, given what this offense has become/is, I would not have been surprised if hypothetically he was at near Tork levels of bad if he had started the season.  Something is broken, and I can't blame it all on the players...it looks like a trend, this team has and offensive disease that appears contageous.