A Break. A Breather. A Respite, if you will. Where's your head at?

[Tiger337]

6 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

Well plus Pujols is probably like 65 right now...😆

Ohtani is basically the current day Ruth...at the moment...he will have to keep us this kind of pace for awhile like you mentioned.  To show my ignorance on Ruths career...he did hit and pitch at the same time right?  IIRC he started as a pitcher then transitioned to hitter, but did still do both for a period?  I am too busy to look it up right now.

He was a pitcher only from 14-17, he did both in 18-19 and then became strictly an outfielder.  

[Tiger337]

34 minutes ago, IdahoBert said:

Aside from his prodigious physical abilities did Ruth gain some insight into how pitchers think by being one or is that an advantage that can be exhausted pretty quickly?

He was the first to master the upper cut swing, so he was the original launch angle guy  I think there were others, but none of them had anywhere near the same success.  Swinging for home runs was regarded as poor practice at the time.      

[oblong]

I read that book that sort of revisited Ty Cobb and made Al Stump out to be a hack that severely distorted everyone's views on how horrible he was.  One thing with Cobb that stood out was he came up with many of the things we take for granted today in terms of gamemanship.  At the time it was considered being a poor sport.  Even simply taking an extra base if the defense was being lazy.  Picking off players who were taking their time going back to the base after a fly ball was caught.  

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, Dtrain72 said:

I agree with that...and he will and should get the remainder of the season at this point.  But, given what this offense has become/is, I would not have been surprised if hypothetically he was at near Tork levels of bad if he had started the season.  Something is broken, and I can't blame it all on the players...it looks like a trend, this team has and offensive disease that appears contageous.

Oh no doubt, the offense has been terrible all year, but with Riley in particular, I just don't see anything that he's done so far that suggests he's far off the mark from expectations given he's only 29 games into his career. Can't really say the same for Tork, who struggled from Day 1 and never seemed to want to adjust his swing to major league pitching.

[chasfh]

49 minutes ago, buddha said:

first of all, its a ridiculous hypothetical.  but he would still be ted williams, only with better nutrition and an instagram presence.

Sure it's ridiculous, but let's play, anyway.

If the guy in question were born decades later, raised in a very different era, growing to a different size, and having a completely different set of nutritional and developmental tools at his disposal—as well as completely different educational, social, sociological and broadly historical experiences, especially from a baseball perspective—I don't see how he could still be the Baseball Hall of Famer Ted Williams, even with similar familial experiences. He would develop in a completely different way and become a person with a completely different set of experiences and skills and points of view about practically everything, including the art of hitting. Ted Williams was a guy born in 1918, the "half-breed" son of a Mexican-American single mother who essentially abandoned him to his own devices in favor of a career in the Salvation Army. He was the unique product of his specific time and place and situation in history. Even if a person born eighty years later is named Ted Williams (and really, who in 1998 names their kid “Ted”, anyway?), I don't believe he could still the same person. Because of all the differences surrounding him, he’s a completely different person, because of the circumstances surrounding his time and place. Instead he’d be somebody like … oh, I don’t know … maybe Juan Soto.

I think an only slightly less ridiculous but fun-to-contemplate hypothetical is to imagine transporting Ted Williams out of 1942 and plopping him into the middle of Major League Baseball 2022 and trying to imagine how he would do. That would definitely be the same guy, same background and experiences, same level of development, same skill set, same everything, just magically transported into another era, handed a bat, and told here you go, try to keep up—which I think he would struggle to do, since he'd be facing pitches he'd never seen before coming at speeds much faster than even Feller. He might figure out how to make a go of it in time, but I don't believe he would be performing anywhere near his Hall of Fame level.

Edited July 22, 2022 by chasfh

[RandyMarsh]

Ohtani is probably the most gifted player to ever pick up a baseball or bat. Has one of the top 5 quickest bats in the league, one of the fastest sprinters and has top 5 stuff on the mound. He is the definition of a unicorn player. 

[John_Brian_K]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Sure it's ridiculous, but let's play, anyway.

If the guy in question were born decades later, raised in a very different era, growing to a different size, and having a completely different set of nutritional and developmental tools at his disposal—as well as completely different educational, social, sociological and broadly historical experiences, especially from a baseball perspective—I don't see how he could still be the Baseball Hall of Famer Ted Williams, even with similar familial experiences. He would develop in a completely different way and become a person with completely set of experiences and skills and points of view about practically everything, including the art of hitting. Ted Williams was a guy born in 1918, the "half-breed" son of a Mexican-American single mother who essentially abandoned him to his own devices in favor of a career in the Salvation Army. He was the unique product of his specific time and place and situation in history. Even if a person born eighty years later is named Ted Williams (and really, who in 1998 names their kid “Ted”, anyway?), I don't believe he could still the same person. Because of all the differences surrounding him, he’s a completely different person, because of the circumstances surrounding his time and place. Instead he’d be somebody like … oh, I don’t know … maybe Juan Soto.

 

I think an only slightly less ridiculous but fun-to-contemplate hypothetical is to imagine transporting Ted Williams out of 1942 and plopping him into the middle of Major League Baseball 2022 and trying to imagine how he would do. That would definitely be the same guy, same background and experiences,

same level of development, same skill set, same everything, just magically transported into another era, handed a bat, and told here you go, try to keep up—which I think he would struggle to do, given he's be facing pitches he'd never seen before coming at speeds much faster than Feller. He might figure out how to make a go of it in time, but I don't believe he would be performing anywhere near his Hall of Fame level.

As much as I like to glorify what the greats have done in history...not just with baseball, but everything really, I pretty much agree with your conclusion that if you dropped 1942 Williams in todays game, he would have a rough time with it, I am PRETTY sure he would still be a good player, but even that is debatable.....if you take out the weirdness of just having been transported in time and assume for the sake of the weird hypothetical that it was a normal thing....

I am also not that versed in pitchers from that era, but my gut is telling me pitchers today throw harder, study more and then take into account relievers.  I am pretty sure there were not as many good pitchers in relief back then.

[John_Brian_K]

3 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Ohtani is probably the most gifted player to ever pick up a baseball or bat. Has one of the top 5 quickest bats in the league, one of the fastest sprinters and has top 5 stuff on the mound. He is the definition of a unicorn player. 

100% what that dude is doing is off the charts....for now....does he keep it up?  Do the Angels or whoever he ends up with LET him keep it up?  Personally I think a team would be stupid to try to pigeon hole him into one or the other, but I am sure there are a million examples in history where they took a SP and made him a reliever or vice versa...or moved a guy from pitching to the field etc.

With Ohtani, if they tried to do that, it would be criminal IMO.

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Ohtani is probably the most gifted player to ever pick up a baseball or bat. Has one of the top 5 quickest bats in the league, one of the fastest sprinters and has top 5 stuff on the mound. He is the definition of a unicorn player. 

I've joked that Ohtani himself magically transported himself from 2072, where he is merely an ordinary decent ballplayer, to 2022, where he gets to use his unique size and skills to take advantage of a game half century behind what he trained for. Either that or he comes from another planet that plays superior baseball. His skill set is literally off the charts that have been established over time.

I heard a baseball podcast the other day declare, with complete certainty, that there can never, ever be another player like Ohtani. I don't necessarily agree with that—if a player like Ohtani happened once, another player like him could certainly happen again. But it did take 140+ years for us to get an Ohtani, so I could see how it could take a few hundred years before baseball sees another player like him..

[chasfh]

Speaking of Ted Williams, look where he's "buried" ...

[John_Brian_K]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I've joked that Ohtani himself magically transported himself from 2072, where he is merely an ordinary decent ballplayer, to 2022, where he gets to use his unique size and skills to take advantage of a game half century behind what he trained for. Either that or he comes from another planet that plays superior baseball. His skill set is literally off the charts that have been established over time.

I heard a baseball podcast the other day declare, with complete certainty, that there can never, ever be another player like Ohtani. I don't necessarily agree with that—if a player like Ohtani happened once, another player like him could certainly happen again. But it did take 140+ years for us to get an Ohtani, so I could see how it could take a few hundred years before baseball sees another player like him..

Here is the thing though....if for some reason he stops playing next year....injury...whatever...does that change your feeling on him?  

[mtutiger]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Speaking of Ted Williams, look where he's "buried" ...

To make the joke again, hypothetically, we could see him again someday 😮

[oblong]

Again.... another book reference.... I read a book called The Cloudbuster Nine, which was about the Navy's Pre Flight Training program.  It was the type of training that led to the formation of the SEALs.  Presidents, Astronauts, and guys like Ted Williams came through this program.  It was very tough. When they formed it they reached out to elite coaches around the world, your Bear Bryants, etc.  Ted found a home in this program because he found in it the discipline and drive that he required of himself and demanded.  His home life growing up was sort of empty, he was a lazy student.  But he loved what flying required and became an excellent student which was obviously required to be good at it.  And he was very good at it.  He wasn't just a pro athlete mugging for the camera for PR purposes.  My point is that dedication led to him being a great hitter as a student of the game and I see no reason why he wouldn't have had the same in today's world. 

Read that book if you love military history and love to read about athletes and training.  I thought it was going to be about a bunch of military baseball players, and it was in there, but it was so much more. I think the title is misleading.

 

[chasfh]

28 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

Here is the thing though....if for some reason he stops playing next year....injury...whatever...does that change your feeling on him?  

Meaning my feeling that his skill set is literally off the established charts? Sure. He is what he is right now and that wouldn't change if he had to stop playing. He will always have what he's done, what we've seen.

[chasfh]

27 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

To make the joke again, hypothetically, we could see him again someday 😮

Well, maybe you could, junior ... 😉

[Biff Mayhem]

29 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

To make the joke again, hypothetically, we could see him again someday 😮

Let it go. Let it go.

[Biff Mayhem]

I recall a story of Ted at an all star game and all the players he spoke with mentioned that all an elderly Ted wanted to talk about was hitting.

[chasfh]

Just now, Biff Mayhem said:

I recall a story of Ted at an all star game and all the players he spoke with mentioned that all an elderly Ted wanted to talk about was hitting.

The 1999 All Star Game when he was brought onto the field in a golf cart, and all the players surrounding him like they were little kids. That was also when Ted asked McGwire whether he could smell the smoke coming off the bat after a particularly good hit. Nice moment.

[gkelly]

On 7/22/2022 at 10:50 AM, chasfh said:

Speaking of Ted Williams, look where he's "buried" ...

I seem to remember his head was removed form his body and the place where he was frozen lost power and he thawed out...

Edited August 6, 2022 by gkelly

[1984Echoes]

My head is in the future.

Hope my body never catches up...

[1984Echoes]

Ooops.

Too late!

[gkelly]

The old timers tell me that Williams and Musial were the best players they ever saw.  

I think a good ballplayer in any era would find a way to be a good player in any other era.  Williams was obsessed with hitting.  If he had that attitude today with the proper training, nutrition, etc. he would be just fine.  He was 6-3, 205 lbs in his playing day.  I imagine he would lift weights, train hard, etc.  He also had 20-10 eyesight which would be a huge advantage today.  He ended up with a .344 average, .482 OBP, and .634 slugging percentage.  He did manage to hit 521 home runs while missing 5 years in his prime years while averaging around 36 home runs a year in the years around those.  Had he not missed those seasons, you are talking possibly around 700 home runs, 3500 hits, 2400 rbi, 2700 BB, 2400 runs.  He won 2 MVPs and got screwed out of 3 other MVPs because he wasn't a Yankee.  He would have been a contender in those missing years as well.  Little doubt he would easily be considered the greatest player of all time had he not missed those years.  

Edited August 6, 2022 by gkelly

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, gkelly said:

I seem to remember his head was removed form his body and the place where he was frozen lost power and he thawed out...

Is that a metaphor for the 2022 Tigers?

[sabretooth]

Chas is right that it would be difficult for 1940s hitters to catch up to todays pitching.

Edited August 10, 2022 by sabretooth

[RandyMarsh]

6 hours ago, sabretooth said:

Chas is right that it would be difficult for 1940s hitters to catch up to todays pitching.

I think if you just transplanted them from then to now that they would definitely struggle particularly at first but I think if you could transplant them from when they hit puberty and let them grow up using today's nutrition, 24/7/365 type coaching with top technology, top fitness gurus etc. and had them facing today's velo and tougher pitching all throughout like today's young players do/did then they'd be just fine in today's environment especially the elite ones like Williams Dimaggio and Musial.

Edited August 10, 2022 by RandyMarsh