General Tsao's Cold War

[gehringer_2]

  On 11/5/2021 at 3:25 PM, 1776 said:

Trust me on this, the bubbas will never love Chinese Communism.

I agree with your suggestion that Biden take a public stand and speak affirmatively about China’s responsibility regarding the devastation and death this virus has caused. Unfortunately, I don’t expect him to stand up to China. Trump rolled over for Xi and Putin. I would like to see Biden be as direct as you suggest but I’ll not hold my breath.

Expand  

The death and destruction caused by the virus is not the fault of the Chinese. A pandemic like this one could have started anywhere. The speculation that they somehow accidentally engineered this remains exactly that - speculation.  I would think we in the US would at some point learn the lesson to stop blaming other countries without actual proof for things it turns out they aren't doing (Gulf of Tonkin, WMD anyone?). Other than early regional leadership denial of what was going on ( sort of like Tx or Fla when faced with a public health issues? ) the Chinese government has not been doing anything to make things worse anywhere else in the world and it would be pointless to carry on on the international stage politically like they were. Does anyone seriously think that if a bug got started in the US we would have acted efficiently enough to prevent it getting over the borders? The country where people are so public-health disciplined they won't even get vaccinated?

[romad1]

  On 11/5/2021 at 3:51 PM, gehringer_2 said:

The death and destruction caused by the virus is not the fault of the Chinese. A pandemic like this one could have started anywhere. The speculation that they somehow accidentally engineered this remains exactly that - speculation.  I would think we in the US would at some point learn the lesson to stop blaming other countries without actual proof for things it turns out they aren't doing (Gulf of Tonkin, WMD anyone?). Other than early regional leadership denial of what was going on ( sort of like Tx or Fla when faced with a public health issues? ) the Chinese government has not been doing anything to make things worse anywhere else in the world and it would be pointless to carry on on the international stage politically like they were. Does anyone seriously think that if a bug got started in the US we would have acted efficiently enough to prevent it getting over the borders? The country where people are so public-health disciplined they won't even get vaccinated?

Expand  

Info op it any way you choose.  Xi wants Taiwan and we have to stop that.  Or, we don't.  We can just be their slaves. 

[1776]

  On 11/5/2021 at 3:51 PM, gehringer_2 said:

The death and destruction caused by the virus is not the fault of the Chinese. A pandemic like this one could have started anywhere. The speculation that they somehow accidentally engineered this remains exactly that - speculation. 

Expand  

So, why does China continue to stonewall and outright deny access to specific sites of interest related to the origins of the virus? What is the cause or motive for this? 

[gehringer_2]

  On 11/5/2021 at 4:03 PM, romad1 said:

Info op it any way you choose.  Xi wants Taiwan and we have to stop that.  Or, we don't.  We can just be their slaves. 

Expand  

I don't disagree about Taiwan, but Covid and Taiwan stand as independent facts. 

[romad1]

  On 11/5/2021 at 5:17 PM, gehringer_2 said:

I don't disagree about Taiwan, but Covid and Taiwan stand as independent facts. 

Expand  

The public won't see the difference.  

[gehringer_2]

  On 11/5/2021 at 5:21 PM, romad1 said:

The public won't see the difference.  

Expand  

The ignorance level of the US public has already adequately proved its downside. Maybe we should worry less about playing to it and do more about changing it.

[gehringer_2]

  On 11/5/2021 at 4:11 PM, 1776 said:

So, why does China continue to stonewall and outright deny access to specific sites of interest related to the origins of the virus? What is the cause or motive for this? 

Expand  

My best guess?: Because they don't know the answers either and a leader like Xi has too big an investment in not being embarrassed by bad news generated by outside sources - even if not about the virus itself but  about all the secondary issues that would likely emerge. But there could be a hundred others. Xi is a wannabe emperor and a definite problem child for the US but you are going to get further in your efforts to get ahead of him if you try to understand why his actions are rational from his perspective than if you just impune them in ways that make for good US politics.

[Archie]

  On 11/5/2021 at 3:51 PM, gehringer_2 said:

The death and destruction caused by the virus is not the fault of the Chinese. A pandemic like this one could have started anywhere. 

Expand  

It could have but it didn't.  Covid was originated in China and then the cover up began.  It was first said it was because of a bat in a market but then it was revealed it came from a laboratory.  It possible the WHO even helped them in covering their tracks.  There needs to be a thorough investigation on how all this happened and who was responsible.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Archie

[Hongbit]

  On 11/5/2021 at 5:49 PM, Archie said:

It could have but it didn't.  Covid was originated in China and then the cover up began.  It was first said it was because of a bat in a market but then it was revealed it came from a laboratory.  It possible the WHO even helped them in covering their tracks.  There needs to be a thorough investigation on how all this happened and who was responsible.

Expand  

I think it’s safe to assume at this point that the pandemic was created by the same group that stole the election from Trump and funds the Clinton child sex trafficking ring.    

[ewsieg]

  On 11/5/2021 at 6:25 PM, Hongbit said:

I think it’s safe to assume at this point that the pandemic was created by the same group that stole the election from Trump and funds the Clinton child sex trafficking ring.    

Expand  

I mean, Archie is wrong to state it as fact, but if you are comparing the idea that it originated in the lab to the conspiracy theories that the election was stolen, clinton child sex trafficking, and russian collusion, than you are purposely ignoring facts as well.

[romad1]

  On 11/5/2021 at 6:31 PM, ewsieg said:

I mean, Archie is wrong to state it as fact, but if you are comparing the idea that it originated in the lab to the conspiracy theories that the election was stolen, clinton child sex trafficking, and russian collusion, than you are purposely ignoring facts as well.

Expand  

I will categorize the US Government position on China lab theory as "the jury is still out"

[1984Echoes]

  On 11/5/2021 at 3:25 PM, 1776 said:

Trust me on this, the bubbas will never love Chinese Communism...

Expand  

BS.

They love Russian Fascism.

Because... Trump.

They're stupid and they'll love whatever their "Dear Leader" tells them to love. If it's Xi Jinping or Kim Jong Un... they'll fall in love as directed.

[ewsieg]

  On 11/5/2021 at 6:38 PM, romad1 said:

I will categorize the US Government position on China lab theory as "the jury is still out"

Expand  

Exactly, but to compare it to the stolen election or clinton sex trafficking, seriously now.   There is actual evidence other than just the happenstance that it originated in the same city as an internationally funded virus lab to support it as a viable theory.  

[gehringer_2]

  On 11/5/2021 at 6:38 PM, romad1 said:

I will categorize the US Government position on China lab theory as "the jury is still out"

Expand  

correct. It is certainly possible, it is also certainly possible it was not.

[1984Echoes]

  On 11/5/2021 at 4:11 PM, 1776 said:

So, why does China continue to stonewall and outright deny access to specific sites of interest related to the origins of the virus? What is the cause or motive for this? 

Expand  

Who gives a shit?

Even if it's their fault, forget playing this blame game. I'm sick of this F'ing blame game.

Look in the mirror first, at how ignorant a significant portion of America is acting... and fix our own damn selves before throwing blame around.

If it started in Canada, or England, or the U.S., or Japan, or Israel, or any other country... MUST we scream and cry and shout out "THEY are to blame"? Asinine. Just deal with pandemics as they come along, responsibly, and make them go away.

[gehringer_2]

  On 11/5/2021 at 6:53 PM, ewsieg said:

Exactly, but to compare it to the stolen election or clinton sex trafficking, seriously now.   There is actual evidence other than just the happenstance that it originated in the same city as an internationally funded virus lab to support it as a viable theory.  

Expand  

You know Wuhan is a huge major metropolis right? There is a probably a state public health lab or University virology program (or more) in every US city the size of Wuhan that studies flu and related virii. So you can say the exact same thing about any US city where an outbreak started. This a real question but too much of what is passed around as the 'evidence' is foolishness.

Edited November 5, 2021 by gehringer_2

[1776]

  On 11/5/2021 at 6:57 PM, 1984Echoes said:

Who gives a shit?

Even if it's their fault, forget playing this blame game. I'm sick of this F'ing blame game.

Expand  

In other words, you don’t have any idea why. 

Edited November 5, 2021 by 1776

[1984Echoes]

Here, I'll give you a "Pandemic" that started in the UNITED STATES:

The 2008 Financial meltdown.

We started it.

We caused a worldwide recession because of our own stupidity.

We caused worldwide losses of Trillions of dollars, in countless countries (I don't even know how many... 30? 40? 50? More?).

Here's an idea: How about we repay all those countries for the $Trillions in losses that we caused them? Everybody is on board with that... right?

[gehringer_2]

In term of actual evidence BTW, one of the initial arguments that gave the lab outbreak theory legs has to do with specific genetic sequences seen in the virus that supposedly are only created in the lab. David Baltimore, a highly respected virologist was an early advocate of this position. Further research has now shown that that supposition was wrong and many wild strain viruses with these sequences have now been found so people like Baltimore have retracted their arguments. Science moves from hypothesis to test to reformulation and new hypothesis, but once something gets into the American social media miasma, it lives forever.

TL,DR version is that this  science at the boundaries of knowledge and uncertainty is the general rule and modesty about being "right" is advisable.

Edited November 5, 2021 by gehringer_2

[Archie]

  On 11/5/2021 at 7:05 PM, 1984Echoes said:

Here, I'll give you a "Pandemic" that started in the UNITED STATES:

The 2008 Financial meltdown.

We started it.

We caused a worldwide recession because of our own stupidity.

We caused worldwide losses of Trillions of dollars, in countless countries (I don't even know how many... 30? 40? 50? More?).

Here's an idea: How about we repay all those countries for the $Trillions in losses that we caused them? Everybody is on board with that... right?

Expand  

Big difference is 5 million plus people didn't die from a financial meltdown. If there was proof China or another country knowingly released a virus that killed that many people would probably start a war and could be nuclear. 

[ewsieg]

  On 11/5/2021 at 6:58 PM, gehringer_2 said:

You know Wuhan is a huge major metropolis right? There is a probably a state public health lab or University virology program (or more) in every US city the size of Wuhan that studies flu and related virii. So you can say the exact same thing about any US city where an outbreak started. This a real question but too much of what is passed around as the 'evidence' is foolishness.

Expand  

No offense, but are you kidding me?  Again, i'm not saying it was a lab leak, but to call it foolishness is equally to far. 

 

[Jim Cowan]

The Spanish Flu started in Kansas lol!

[1984Echoes]

  On 11/5/2021 at 7:13 PM, Archie said:

... If there was proof ... country knowingly released a virus that killed that many people would probably start a war and could be nuclear. 

Expand  

Completely idiotic.

Or do you actually believe that BS?

[1776]

  On 11/5/2021 at 7:05 PM, 1984Echoes said:

Here, I'll give you a "Pandemic" that started in the UNITED STATES:

The 2008 Financial meltdown.

We started it.

We caused a worldwide recession because of our own stupidity.

Expand  

You are correct. 

[1984Echoes]

  On 11/5/2021 at 7:15 PM, ewsieg said:

... Again, i'm not saying it was a lab leak, but to call it foolishness is equally to far. 

Expand  

And again... this is Communist China. They are going to hide the truth. Xi will be too embarrassed to accept the truth. Too protective of his Communist Party to admit the truth. Will create "rumors" that it was actually started in a U.S. military lab (thoroughly debunked...), etc.

So my question(s) are: What are your REALISTIC expectations for a resolution to this? Are you willing to die on this hill, or protest across America that we "need to do something" until you are blue in the face? Or do you want to, like Archie Bunker does, go to nuclear war with China because... because... (hell, I have no idea why that would even be any kind of sane option put on the table...) because... reasons?